Author Topic: Does this make sense to you about drilling's? (Read 2257 times)

Ric Clint · « **on:** June 18, 2005, 04:51:14 PM »

I had a post about this topic already but when I went to reply back to it just now... I hit the delete topic button instead. So I lost all the replies. Sorry.

So here's a summary of what was said in that post:

I'm really big into balls that have good continuation since that helps pin carry.

I've got 2 different original Sonic X Pearl's and one is drilled with the PIN ABOVE the ring and the CG stacked below about 1" right of grip center and I've got another one with the PIN BELOW the ring and the CG stacked below about 1" right of grip. Very similar drilling's but with just the PIN and CG shifter a little lower the the 2nd ball.

With the 1st Sonic X, I'm getting good length but when it get's to the backend, it almost appears to hook/set, or possibly even roll out. It kind of has a small snap but then it just looks like it has no continuing curve.

But with the 2nd Sonic X with the PIN under the ring, the ball still seems to go about as long as the 1st one (it may even be slightly earlier due to the PIN being under the ring finger?), but when it gets to the backend the ball arcs and just keeps going and going creating some of the best continuation. I've got a post on the ROTO GRIP forum a while backend talking about how this ball is just so continuous and has the best pin carry that I've ever seen. But when I drilled up the most recent one a few days ago, I've been disappointed. I've tried and compared both on Medium Oil shots and Lighter Oil shots and the reaction is still the same.

Now I know that PIN's above the ring makes the ball go longer and flip and that PIN's below the ring makes the ball roll slightly earlier and arc... so doesn't that mean that the PIN under the ring should have less continuation than the PIN above ring (since the ball would be rolling earlier, it should be loosing energy therefore losing any hope for it to be continuous on the backend)? It just seems that I'm getting the opposite effect of what I should be getting.

What exactly creats "continuation"? A length and flip drilling... or a ball that gets rolling earlier and arcs to the pocket?

Now keep in mind that I do have slower speed, but yet I'm still getting continuation with the ball that is rolling earlier (isn't that "going against the grain" for my style of slower speed and PIN under the ring finger???)... I would have thought this ball would be rolling out but it's the other ball that is doing the rolling-out or hook/set stuff.

Neither ball has a weight hole. The 1st ball (PIN above ring, CG 1" right of grip) has 5/8oz positive side and 5/8oz finger... and the 2nd ball (PIN below ring, CG 1" right of grip) has exactly 1oz positive side and 1/4oz finger.

One thing I have noticed is that on the PIN above ring ball... my track is about 1/4" from my middle finger and about 1/4" from my thumb. BUT, on the PIN below ring ball... my track is 1/4" from my middle finger and 1-1/2" from my thumb. So does that mean that my track became "inverted" on the PIN below ring ball? If so, would that explain the great reaction I get?

So does PIN under ring help ball's to have great continuation... or was this just a fluke. I would have though that PIN's above ring would have had that great continuation. I'm confused.

I'd like to figure this out so that I will know how to start drilling my other stuff.

Thoughts?

By the way, I'm the one doing the drilling and weighing on these balls.

Edited on 6/19/2005 1:15 AM

Ric Clint · « **Reply #1 on:** June 20, 2005, 02:10:34 PM »

Oh, come on people... I'm almost in tears here.

I need some help, does anybody have ANY thoughts?

Ric Clint · « **Reply #2 on:** June 20, 2005, 05:57:48 PM »

quote:
The look on the first one doesn't surprise me.

What about the 1st ball doesn't surprise you? The angular move along with the hook/set (or roll-out) with no continuation? Or something else?

quote:
The second one is more puzzling. What is your pin to pap on each ball. If the pin is slightly closer on the second ( say 4 inches as opposed to 5 ) then you have a higher flaring layout, which will give you more continuation, even though it starts earlier.

The 1st ball (PIN above ring):
PIN to PAP... 4 3/4"
CG to PAP... 4 1/2"

The 2nd ball (PIN below ring):
PIN to PAP... 4 3/8"
CG to PAP...4 1/2"

So the 2nd ball is just a wee bit closer to my PAP than the 1st ball... so would that small bit of difference make THAT much difference? Surely it would take a difference of closer to more like 1" as opposed to what little difference I've got here to make that big of difference and ball reaction???

I've thrown these balls side by side several times and it's almost like night and day. I've won a good bit of money with the 2nd one (PIN under ring) but the 1st one has gotten me in trouble a little bit.

I really want to figure this out so that I can start drilling some of my other stuff to have the kind of roll I desire with this 2nd ball... but I'm not sure what's causing the continuous roll I get with that ball?

I thought that maybe the lowering of the bow-tie with the PIN under the ring may be the cause or maybe the PIN under ring was just creating more earlier revs, or ...

Edited on 6/20/2005 5:59 PM

Ric Clint · « **Reply #3 on:** June 20, 2005, 08:51:56 PM »

Oh yeah, I forgot. Both are polished with Storm's XTRA SHINE which polishes to 3500... which makes me think the ball may not be rolling out... but maybe just hooking and setting. Which for me and my release, hook/set balls just don't carry. I get 10-pins like crazy... but yet I can use the PIN under ring Sonic X Pearl and keep my release the same and just carry the moon.

Both balls are being used on Medium/Light Oil patterns.

TheDude · « **Reply #4 on:** June 21, 2005, 12:00:07 PM »

I agree completely with what precision said there.

as for hook Set and continous motions, with a ball like this being a lower flaring ball it will not be that big in the backends with almost any kind of pin to pap.

as for certain things with reaction when it comes to hook set and coninuous backend
i feel it really matters about rev rate and axis tilt and rotation and not just separately but together.
a player with very flat axis tilt will often make a ball roll up very early, with a different axis tilt along 25 to 35 degrees they can make a ball delay hook and get the ball to sit at the break point and hold but still finish.

with axis rotation alone you can change reaction from hook set with a 10 degree axis rotation, to fairly skid snap with 90 degrees of axis rotation easily.

quote:
The reaction is very understandable especially for one with slower speed. When a pin is placed higher the ball will transition faster than when placed lower. This means that when the ball does encounter friction it will react quicker to it; a sharp hook and possibly stop for a bowler with slower speed (the ball loses energy at too quick a rate). The lower pin has a slower and smoother transition when encountering friction which means more continuation. Remember that pin to PAP distance determines flare and hook potential and the surface prep is a large contributing factor to when the ball reacts. On these two balls the surface prep is the same and pin to PAP is probably almost identical; this means you are seeing a very good example of how pin height affects transition.

Precision

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Montreal, Quebec.

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Mike Austin · « **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2005, 01:06:40 AM »

Ric,

I didn't read the replies, just going from your post and message.

In my experience, your pin over ball saves energy a little better and releases it more abruptly, getting the slight roll out/hook out motion.

Also, did the pin over ball have a low top weight, if it was below 2.5 oz or so, this could contribute.

I have two shiny Big Bullys. Both pin over the fingers on the span line. One has the cg on my grip line also. #2 has the cg swung out about 2 inches to the right and a low rev hole. #1 is a little longer, jerks hard on the back, but can tend to stop a little in the pocket, specially if the back ends are really clean. If I am soft with my hand motion, this ball continues a little better.

#2 has a couple feet less length, doesn't jerk at all, but hard arcs all the way through the pins, out the back of the machine, through the mechanics shop and into the parking lot behind the building. This ball hits a ton!!! But, I let this one get used dullish, #1 I polish regularly usually with Storm Reacta Shine.

Just like most balls, they are situational, kinda like golf clubs. Not all your clubs can be drivers, gotta throw in the 7 iron with the wedge and putter if you get me. I'm not a golfer anymore but.........

Hope this helps ya...

--------------------
Mike Austin's Precision Pro Shop
Houston, TX
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Ric Clint · « **Reply #6 on:** June 22, 2005, 03:51:23 PM »

Thanks to everybody!

All other comments are welcome!

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #7 on:** June 22, 2005, 08:53:57 PM »

quote:
One thing I have noticed is that on the PIN above ring ball... my track is about 1/4" from my middle finger and about 1/4" from my thumb. BUT, on the PIN below ring ball... my track is 1/4" from my middle finger and 1-1/2" from my thumb. So does that mean that my track became "inverted" on the PIN below ring ball? If so, would that explain the great reaction I get?

The track position difference between the 2 is the major factor in the different reactions.
With this change in track position your PAP is quite a bit different.
Approx. PAP coordinates based on the track positions that you stated.
Pin up - over 5.5 up .75
Pin down - over 5 down .75
Not sure what would cause this change but there is evidently difference in the fit between the 2 balls causing you to have a small increase in axis tilt with the pin under ball and that extra amount on tilt is causing the transition period to be longer giving you more continuation.
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Ric Clint · « **Reply #8 on:** June 23, 2005, 01:06:30 AM »

quote:
The track position difference between the 2 is the major factor in the different reactions.
With this change in track position your PAP is quite a bit different.
Approx. PAP coordinates based on the track positions that you stated.
Pin up - over 5.5 up .75
Pin down - over 5 down .75
Not sure what would cause this change but there is evidently difference in the fit between the 2 balls causing you to have a small increase in axis tilt with the pin under ball and that extra amount on tilt is causing the transition period to be longer giving you more continuation.

So are you saying that subconsciencly (spelling?) I am throwing the PIN under ball with more TILT without realizing it and that is what is causing the better continuation?

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2005, 03:22:48 AM »

You may or may not be doing anything differently. The difference could be created from something that you are physically doing or something with the fit that is changing your release timing.
When I say release timing I am referring to when your thumb exits the ball in relation to the complete release point. Small changes in span/pitch/tightness can make a bigger difference than you would think and may not feel any different.
I for instance am quite sensitive to the tightness of the thumb, when my thumb is a touch looser then what I consider to be ideal for me my track lowers slightly and vise versa, throw in a small span and/or pitch difference and there can be a bigger difference.
There is a local guy that I know that uses switch-grips and has several that are setup with small changes in pitch to give him small changes in roll without changing his grip pressure or swing mechanics. This is an experiment he has been conducting over the last month or so, I am waiting to get a summation of what he has found from the experiment. He works for a machining company and uses a cnc machine to drill the switch grip slugs to ensure accuracy. Next time I see him I will ask what conclusions he has come to so far.
If you think about it there is very little fit difference required to make a large difference in roll. If I remember the numbers correctly the average time from thumb exit to finger exit is .3 seconds if you only change that by a measly .075 sec you are adding or subtracting 25% of the time which can make a pretty large diff' in roll be it from Axis Tilt, Axis Rotation, Revs, Speed or any combination of them.
--------------------
STORM TRACK

www.Bowling-Info.com

BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

Edited on 6/23/2005 3:28 AM

Author Topic: Does this make sense to you about drilling's? (Read 2257 times)

Ric Clint

Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

Ric Clint

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

Ric Clint

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

Ric Clint

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

TheDude

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

Mike Austin

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

Ric Clint

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

Re-Evolution

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

Ric Clint

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?

Re-Evolution

Re: Does this make sense to you about drilling's?