Post by: Re-Evolution on July 21, 2004, 12:10:06 PM
Anyone know how this is done.
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STORMIN1
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 22, 2004, 09:27:16 AM
Works with Beer Cans too...
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 22, 2004, 09:39:56 AM
quote:
Have the customer grab the can naturally and extend and imaginary line out from their thumb to their fingers. If the line hits between the index and middle fingers then it's zero. Straight onto the index finger, 1/8 left, straight onto the middle finger 1/8 right, between the middle and ring finger, 1/4 right. After that, use your judgement.
I believe that The Author is correct. However, this doesn't work for everyone. For example, I point weakly at the index finger, so based on the above this could be interpeted as 1/16 left. (for Right Handers) However, I am RH and I require 5/16 left on a shorter span and 3/16 left on a longer span. The coke can is probably a good starting point but it's still all a trial and error thing. Probably depends on the flexability of the thumb/hand. For me, I am a bit on the stiff side.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: livespive on July 22, 2004, 09:41:31 AM
Just got Bill Taylor's book.
It is all in there and there are extensive posts here in drilling.
I'll try quick here.
Lateral thumb pitch.
Grab coke bottle, if one has thumb point at index finger= 1/8 lateral outbetween index and middle = 0 lateralmiddle finger 1/8 lateral under palmbetween middle and ring 1/4 lateral under palm.
Reverse pitch thumb Bill insists chart tells all4 1/4 span done in a relaxed way = 0 forward reverse pitch.
Each 1/8 inch longer leads to 1/16 more reverse.
Each 1/8 forward leads to 1/16 more forward.
Each of these settings is what Bill calls the 63 degree method between thumb and span angle.
Finger laterals he says are all comfort with no utility, standard is 0 right middle finger and 5/8 lateral right ring.(I don't see many drillers doing this.)Finger forward reverse he claims are a matter of utility, more forward more lift, more reverse less hit and lift.
Standard he says with proper thumb pitch is 0 for all fingertips.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Also:
Nope,
I'm using the Bill Taylor thumb pitch table.
4 1/4 = 0
every 1/8 more span = add 1/16 more reverse.
4 7/8 = 5/16 plus long thumb = 7/16 perfect!!!!
RE Bill Taylor = " How to fit and drill a bowling ball"
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS Luckylefty 4 5/8 span = 3/16 reverse - 1/8 short thumb = 1/16 ah perfect!
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Post by: JS on July 27, 2004, 12:21:25 PM
ps. What are the guidelines to determine a long vs. short thumb?
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 27, 2004, 12:38:36 PM
Also I find most Bill Taylor pitches to have a little too much reverse for my taste and I have a 105 degree flexibility thumb. (Medium flexibility)
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 27, 2004, 01:56:24 PM
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: Pinbuster on July 27, 2004, 02:16:43 PM
And that is using the adjustable measuring ball and throwing it to the pro.
The rest is all guess work and making the customer think you know what you’re doing.
Post by: Pinbuster on July 28, 2004, 08:26:40 AM
Using the adjustable ball you can see the release and the customer can feel the release. You can show them how different pitches affect their release.
Why experiment around 3 or 4 times fine tuning when you can get it right the first time?
The coke can test is at best an educated guess. In seeing thousands of hands measured there are far too many exceptions to those rules.
The only reliable way I’m aware of is using the adjustable ball.
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 28, 2004, 10:20:46 AM
quote:
so we can build a rocket to send a man into space, but are incapable of figuring the proper angle of a thumbhole without a $1000 tool?
that is a good one, PB...
I agree with King Of The Mill...For example, the last 3 months I have made several changes in my grip, span, pitches, etc. The driller would set up the $1000 tool and all would feel appear fine. Now add 15-16 lbs of weight and the ball and release feel different and not as comfortable as the weightless ball.
King recently changed my span, grip, pitches, etc. and he did it all by Email with information furnished by myself and with perfection without ever even seeing my hand. After a month of using this new grip, I have made only a 1/16" change to one finger. Did he need a $1000 tool? No, he only needed some basic information.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: Pinbuster on July 28, 2004, 11:13:01 AM
You have to have the person being fitted throw the ball to you, so you can see in action what the fitting does.
We actually have 3 of the balls, one each of 11lb, 13lb, 15lb so that the customer can feel it with the proper weight.
But my coke can test says I need left pitch. If I put left in a ball it will tear off the side of my thumb, I’ve used it in the long past (20+ years ago) and it wasn’t pretty, actually pretty bloody.
I use ¼ right and ½ reverse. My span is 4 5/16 4 3/8, a relaxed finger tip grip.
I don’t know for sure but I would guess Taylor would say I need forward. Again been tried but I can’t get it off my hand unless I make the thumb huge.
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 28, 2004, 01:07:00 PM
quote:
We actually have 3 of the balls, one each of 11lb, 13lb, 15lb so that the customer can feel it with the proper weight.
PB, my driller's ball is weightless. That's why I said that the driller would set up the fitting ball and it would feel good and then drill a 15# ball that way and it felt bad. Thank god we have people around like KOTM when the local proshop is our only option and that option didn't work.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: Doc Hollywood on July 28, 2004, 04:56:56 PM
I have really been able to relax my hand at this point.
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Doc
Owner and Inventor of
DOC'S MAGIC BOWLING BALL ELIXIR
For more information click on the link below
http://home.comcast.net/~docsmagic/
or message me at:
http://Doc65@aol.com
Post by: RSalas on July 28, 2004, 05:04:55 PM
quote:
so we can build a rocket to send a man into space, but are incapable of figuring the proper angle of a thumbhole without a $1000 tool?
Ah, but there are quite a few people--some of whom may even be registered users of this site--who don't believe that we've *ever* sent anyone into space.
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Horrid in Doubles, torrid in Singles...
...that's The Curse of Dusty.
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 28, 2004, 05:47:12 PM
We've got a driller around here who is getting good results with bowlers.
He uses his fitting ball and starts everyone with lateral OUT pitch in the fitting ball and if they drag starts to move them to 0. Most of his clients have decent looking releases. Except him! He also has a bunch of honor scores that are actually pretty surprising as to me it looks like he releases about 8 different ways with no predictablility.
He says almost NONE of his clients end up with thumb lateral under palm(right for righties) Bill Taylor says most people should be lateral under palm.
I'd call that a point of contention.
I can't imagine me being able to throw a ball well or hold on well withhout being somewhere near 1/4 thumb under lateral(left for this lefty) due to my thumb pointing in the coke bottle test almost at my ring finger. But I was gonna swing by and see what his gizmo says out of curiousity.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: The great one on July 29, 2004, 12:55:55 AM
Post by: Pinbuster on July 29, 2004, 08:40:28 AM
With a somewhat educated guess a pitch will reasonably work for 80+% of the bowlers.
But we have “proshops†around here that drill the same pitch ( ¼ Rev 1/8 Left for right handed bowlers, opposite lateral for lefties) for every bowler that comes in their shop and over 80% of their customers are happy as well.
I’m simply saying for the best chance of getting it right the first time you need to use the Jayhawk type of adjustable ball.
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 29, 2004, 12:25:26 PM
Bill Taylor's tables would put you at 0 forward reverse.
But there is a chance if you tried that you may like it but you may need more forward bevel that you are currently used to. Are your balls almost no bevel in the thumb?
Also Bill would take a look at your thumb length and if you are over 2 1/4 inches and also look at your flexibility. If you are wet thumbed, long or hang he would probably add about 1/8 to 1/4 to his starting point of near 0 for reverse pitch.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: Pinbuster on July 29, 2004, 01:13:49 PM
And according to my handy 8 inch measuring tool I have with me at all times I would say my thumb is
Hmm it doesn't have partial inches
2 3/8
Guess that disproves that theory on....
Edited on 7/29/2004 1:12 PM
Edited on 7/29/2004 1:25 PM
Post by: livespive on July 29, 2004, 02:37:28 PM
quote:
I have lots of bevel, I'm the king of bevel
And according to my handy 8 inch measuring tool I have with me at all times I would say my thumb is
Hmm it doesn't have partial inches
2 3/8
Guess that disproves that theory on....
Edited on 7/29/2004 1:12 PM
Edited on 7/29/2004 1:25 PM
Yeah that is a long thumb LMAO
Speaking of thumbs what is the standard depth that a thumb hole gets drilled?
from knuckle to tip my thumb is 3"
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 29, 2004, 05:40:48 PM
quote:
Speaking of thumbs what is the standard depth that a thumb hole gets drilled?
from knuckle to tip my thumb is 3"
Eric, then you have an excessive long thumb.
Thumb hole bevel--I keep the top of mine square, no bevel at all. I use a piece of sand paper to barely brush the sharp edge of the just drilled thumb hole to knock the sharp edge off. If I beveled the thumb hole, I would have to lengthen my span.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: livespive on July 29, 2004, 08:58:27 PM
I'm not the smallest of guys, ask Kendog
On two of my balls I tried the no bevel thing.
If I am going to do that I think I am going to
have to make the hole just a hair bigger.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Post by: JohnP on July 30, 2004, 12:18:25 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 30, 2004, 12:32:08 PM
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 03, 2004, 11:34:48 PM
quote:
I very seldom measure anyone that needs right thumb pitch. Occasionally 0, more frequently 1/8 to 1/4 L. Make a fist in the same manner you would grip the proverbial Coke can. Now try to move your thumb in the R pitch direction (for righties, reverse for lefties). Feel a lot of resistance? Now move it in the L pitch direction. Moves easily, doesn't it. Now put your hand roughly in a bowling grip and try moving the thumb similarly. Same thing? If you miss the lateral pitch on the R side, you can very easily lock the bowler into the ball unless he turns the ball early. I know this, because my grip was that way for over 30 years. When you make the fist, if your thumb falls between the RF and MF, I figure that's 0 pitch. On the MF is 1/8" L, and between the MF and IF is 1/4" L. I very seldom find anyone that needs more than 1/4" L. -- JohnP
I don't put much stock in the coke can test because for me, it's a case of "been there, done that and it didn't work". It may work for some people, but it doesn't work for me.
The above is a copy of a post made by John P under another topic. It may not be accurate for some people, but for me it is very accurate and "dead on". To give you an example why I know that John P's method is accurate for me is.....I've been fighting with my spans, pitches, grip, etc for over a year now. I talked to LL and he refered me to King Of The Mill. I contacted King and he had me do some measuring and some tests and send the information to him. From this information, King came up with a complete new grip, span, pitches, etc. for me and it was accurate and it worked. The only adjustment I had to make is a 1/16" less span on the middle finger. Everything else is exactly the same today as it was a month ago.
Then when John P posted the above about determing thumb lateral pitches, I ran that test on my hand and it came out exactly the same as the lateral pitches King set me up on.....To sum it up, for me it is much more accurate then Bill Taylor's coke can test......And I thank LL for refering me to King.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 05, 2004, 02:15:37 PM
booooooom..........Boom!
It is about the relavance of lateral pitch.
Realize I am not advocating thumb UNDER lateral pitch, I am advocating proper pitch for YOUR anatomy!
boooom.............Boom!
Boomingly,
Lucky