BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: qstick777 on January 14, 2005, 01:46:14 PM
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How important is the drilling layout - relative to the bowlers speed and revs?
I have an AMF Velocity that was drilled "stacked leverage" with a weight hole. Pin is about an inch above and to the right of my ring finger - not sure where the CG is on this ball. This ball does not move for me at all.
I won't pretend to know anything about layouts and my release, but I would say that I'm medium speed and medium rev. Ball rotation is right around 45 degrees.
Other balls I have move fine, but this ball just goes straight. Is it possible that this layout just doesn't work for my style? I read another post about a strong layout can sometimes cancel out a strong core, could this be the case?
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Any ideas or suggestions? Anybody?
Do I need to give more info? Basically I'm stuck with a $200 paperweight right now! This is the first "performance" ball I've purchased and it just won't move for me. I've thrown it in out of box finish and taken it down to 1000 - still nothing for me.
The only ways I can get this ball to move are: 1) "suitcase" the release, or 2) ball thumbless and really crank the ball. With #1, I can't get any speed or control and usually end up hitting the 4 or 7 pin. With #2, I have too much speed and even less control - I either hit the pocket and strike, or I washout and leave ugly splits.
Other balls I throw (without any problems getting a reaction):
15lbs- Bowl America Patriot, Brunswick Power Groove, Savage Flip, Dynothane Vendetta;
14.5lb- Red Hammer (Faball);
14lb - Apex Obsession, and Track Thrash.
The Velocity is 14lb.
Please, any suggestions or ideas? Do I have a bad ball, or do I need to have it plugged and re-drilled in a different layout?
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You say the that ball is drilled "stacked leverage"...but the Velocity is an Asymmetric ball and therefore the relationship of the MB (marked as a triangle on AMF balls) to your Positive Axis Point will determine how much the ball will turn in the backend. Without knowing your Axis Coordinates it's tough to say how far away the Pin or MB are away from your PAP. There is also the possibility that the layout chosen does not totally fit your game or your track circumference.
Your Obsession should also have a MB...how is this ball laid out compared to your Velocity.
Really hard to answer these questions over the net. Honestly, I would take the ball back to your driller and try and figure out what is going on. It's possible the layout just isn't correct.
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-Chris: DJ's Pro Shop : Auburn, MA
Edited on 1/17/2005 10:12 AM
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qstick777 -- Layout is not nearly as important as surface. Try taking the surface down to 400 grit, then if it breaks too early hit it lightly with polish. If it's still too early, come back up to 600 grit. -- JohnP
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yep. biggest factor is matching the surface of the ball to the oil pattern you are bowling on... lots of oil needs lots of surface...
S^2
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
He was a big fella - 6'2"... 180
-Old Western Movie on AMC
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I think the MB is the "bomb" logo ?? Obsession is layed out with drilling #1 "label leverage" of the drilling sheet. Pin is under the ring finger (the left side of the finger, more towards the middle of the two fingers, but still under the ring finger), CG is directly below that (about 1:00 relative to the thumb), and the MB is about 4:30 relative to the thumb. Pin, CG, and MB are all in a straight line.
Hope that makes sense.
I see that you work at a pro shop - is plugging and redrilling something that is typically charged for? When they laid it out, they asked if I wanted it stacked leverage - I didn't know what that was and they asked if I wanted it aggressive. My house just installed new lanes and started oiling pretty heavy and none of my stuff was reacting, so I said I was looking for something that would match up to those conditions and they drilled "stacked leverage." Results have been disappointing (as outlined in previous posts) and I'm basically stuck with a $200 spare ball!
I appreciate the feedback and any suggestions. I guess the best thing is take it back and see what they say - everything else they have drilled has been great.
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Your original post said your other equipment moves fine, then your last reply said "started oiling pretty heavy and none of my stuff was reacting". Which one is it? I don't think plugging and redrilling will help much. Stacked leverage is typically a very aggressive drill pattern.
Alter the surface and try finding a drier line toward the outside.
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With respect to the original question:
quote:
How important is the drilling layout - relative to the bowlers speed and revs?
The answer is HUGE. The drilling layout determines the hook shape of the ball. Changing the surface (sanding or polishing) provides for fine tuning the breakpoint, assuming there is an overall match of cover to lane condition. But if you want skid/snap and you have a drill pattern for early hook and arc, there is little that surface prep will do to change the inherent behavior of the ball. In this case, you're looking at a plug and redrill.
But first, you need to have someone qualified (preferably your driller) watch you to determine the best combination of drill/surface to match your game. Good luck.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
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Yes, shops charge for plugging and re-drilling...however, if there was an error we would fix it free of charge typically.
If your house is putting out more oil I can understand why a Velocity isn't making the corner. The ball is a great skid / flip ball so even with a strong drilling it sounds like the ball is storing energy too long. A surface change would be my first instinct with the ball now that I know this information. I do still have one question...did you pick the ball or was this based on a shop recommendation? For heavier oil a Max Velocity would've been a lot better choice.
I mean if you have an obsession and are having problems getting it to read, why would they drill out a skid / flip pearlized ball?
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-Chris: DJ's Pro Shop : Auburn, MA
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If the Velocity is an asymmetrical skid flip ball, then a 3 3/8 stacked layout would make the ball die before it gets far enough down the lane.
Asymmetrical cores flip early because they're unbalanced. Placing the core in an unstable leverage position, 3 3/8 from your PAP, will cause the core to flip even earlier.
When a core flips earlier, it uses it's energy earlier, causing the ball to roll out quicker and do nothing on the backend.
This could be what's happening. =:^D
Edited on 1/17/2005 4:16 PM
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Thanks everyone for the input and advice.
My house just installed new synthetic lanes and for a while was still using the oil/conditioner made for wood lanes (since they replaced the lanes over about a months time) - this was unknown to any of us in the league until now - so at that time none of my equipment was moving at all.
When I said that my other equipment moves fine, I was referring to using it in other houses compared to the Velocity. I bowled in two different houses and both times the Velocity just went straight (eg: if I threw 3rd arrow, the ball would just hit the 3 pin - if I threw 2nd arrow it would just hit the 6) - ball might move 1 or 2 boards at the most, but mostly I can just watch the ball rotating all the way down.
Goof1073 - I picked the ball based on the promo material from the website. I don't believe the Max Velocity was released at the time. I didn't have a particle ball and I thought the Velocity looked good and would be good for oil (yes I know now its a light load, but I thought particle = good for oil).
I recently decided to move down to 14lb (some strain in my arm - just started bowling in April and may have picked a too heavy weight, so I wanted to move down to relieve the strain and give me a chance to develop good form). The Obsession and Thrash were purchased after the Velocity (got both for less than the Velocity) just to see if it was the Velocity or if I was doing something wrong. I've had better luck with the Obsession and Thrash, but still the Velocity just spins straight down the lane (which is why I decided to see if anybody here had any suggestions).
I guess I'll take it back to the pro shop and see what they say. They've drilled all my stuff except the Patriot, Obsession, and Thrash, but they aren't located in the lanes, so they haven't seen me throw.
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Just an update-
I took the ball down to 400 grit and still having the same problem.
I took the ball back to the pro shop and asked them what I should do. They said there isn't much they can do about it, that its drilled for maximum hook. They did say something about maybe taking the thumb down a little - that that could maybe make it roll a little sooner. They said they've heard problems like this before and maybe I should try the manufacturer, or maybe try to sell it and cut my losses. Does any of this sound right? I'd hate to think I have a $200 paper weight.
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then it won't matter. hahaha I think todays bowler collect balls. If it don't hook get another one hahaha I am sure you find one works. you should drill stack unless you can crank it a little.
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Honestly I got a lot of balls. Not kidding.
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I would say maybe the ball is too strong for the oil and its rolling out. But you would see the ball move a little bit then just puke, so it might not be the case. Either way, you have a spare ball.
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Thanks! I don't think its rolling out. I just got a dig camera that can record video, so I think I'm going to try and capture my throw on vid. I guess its a good looking spare ball, but I'm partial to my Ebonite Snuffy! Really just bummed since its the first time I bought a new model ball and paid full price. Got both the Obsession and Thrash NIB with drilling for less than I paid for the Velocity! Guess that's what happens when you buy a ball based on promotional material and looks!
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Greg T - What change in oil pattern is there?
If your ball is flipping that much it is probably moving too early in the oil. You say it's drilled leverage. There are many leverage drills. Do you mean the pin is at 3 3/8 and the cg kicked right of that? It sounds like a rev leverage type of drill. Those type of drills begin to lay the core down faster and use the energy earlier. When that happens the ball tries to hook in the oil and doesn't move much. Think about turning your car wheels 45 degrees while on ice. The ball flares to maximum position and nothing left when it gets to the dry. So often times moving the cg closer to the track will slow this down and move the time when the ball flairs to later down the lane.
Of course axis tilt has a lot to do with the layout. If you are high tilt you need the ball to lay down faster and a low tilt needs to hold to retain longer.
If you have question message me. I don't always peer into this forum.
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Doc
Owner and Inventor of
DOC'S MAGIC BOWLING BALL ELIXIR
For more information click on the link below
http://home.comcast.net/~docsmagic/
or message me at:
http://Doc65@aol.com
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Sounds like the cover and core don't match the lanes conditions that you're bowling on this year. Leave the velocity alone its a good ball. Invest in a
AMF Triumph it is a better match up for the conditions you're bowling on. Chitown is right the drill is secondary to the cover in importance to ball reaction.
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quote:
The only thing that drill layout does is change the distance the ball gets into its foward roll. Listen drill layouts count for about 15 percent of a balls reaction. Most of the reaction of a ball is due to the cover. I think people put too much thought into layouts instead of the covers. I can take a old urathane ball drilled like a spare ball and bowl well with it on the right conditions. Match the balls cover to the lane conditions. I like to have my arsenal drilled the same xcept for my heavy oil ball.
15%??? I would say more like anywhere from 30-45% of the ball reaction can be modified by a drill pattern. Lets take an example: Try throwing zone classic with the pin on your pap and the mb on your track. This will be the most rolly ball you could ever imagine, probably a lighter condition ball. It will probably rev off your hand and even out the backend on even the driest of backends.
Now, take another zone classic and put the pin 4 inches from your pap and the mb at 75 degrees. This ball will be COMPLETELY skid snap, more of a medium-medium heavy ball depending on how much hand you have.
Having 2 command zone arcs drilled only slightly different (one in pin 3 3/8 from pap, hole in thumb positive, other is pin 4 inches, hole 1 inch past pap) I can tell you that the drilling does make a difference in ball reaction. The first cza is all roll, great for a heavier pattern, the second one gets down the lane much cleaner and doesn't rev up as hard, but the flare does increase the backend. There is a 4 board difference on a house shot between the hook on these balls.
You are mistaken if you think drilling does not make a large impact on reaction for the better bowler, as it does. 95% of bowlers can just get balls drilled label, however, as they have so many other problems in there games and only have one ball. Once they get to the 190 level, thats when drill patterns can really make a difference and help someones game out, by helping them carry an extra strike or 2 a game.
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stanski
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quote:
15%??? I would say more like anywhere from 30-45% of the ball reaction can be modified by a drill pattern.
Straight out of Revolutions 2, by Chip Zielke:
1. Coverstock / Surface Prep = 65-70%
2. Weight Block / Core Design = 15-20%
3. Dynamic Balance = 10-15%
3. Balance Holes = 0-5%
4. Mass Bias = 0-5%
5. Static Weight = 0-5%
Coverstock and Surface Prep have been the major influence on ball reaction, for a long time. Hard to diagnosis a ball reaction on-line, Especially, when you don't know a bowler, and can't see their game.
It's all about matching up: speed, revs, axis tilt, oil pattern, amount of lane play, etc. (imho)
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Duke Harding
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I'd Rather be Lucky than Good.
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When you go into those percentages wouldn't assymetricals have a greater effect percentage wise than 'normal' cores (with a little dip in the ball surface %)
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