Author Topic: Layout measurements (Read 2245 times)

DavidKSNK · « **on:** August 30, 2004, 08:20:19 AM »

I see many who describe their drilling in terms of 5 x5 etc. etc...how do you determine that and what does it mean? Sorry, a little less knowledgeable about this sort of thing.

Also could someone explain RG to me. Thanks.
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Somewhere in the far distant future Lane #1's slogan will be..."Lane #1, out-carrying Storm for over 50 years!"

JohnP · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2004, 05:10:13 PM »

DavidKSNK -- You don't need to apologize for asking questions, that's how you learn and that's a big part of what this forum is for. In any layout specified as A x B (for example, 5 x 5), the first number is the distance from the positive axis point (PAP) to the pin and the second number is the distance from the PAP to the center of gravity (cg) for symmetrical core balls or to the mass bias for nonsymmetrical core balls. The following link will take you to a technical document at the Columbia 300 website that explains RG and differential RG a lot better than I can. Brouse through their other tech documents and the ones at the Ebonite website, there's a lot of good info there. -- JohnP

http://www.columbia300.com/innovation/techdocs.cfm?id=5

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2004, 08:11:10 PM »

John, Let me add another question to this topic. When they say for example 5 x 5 or 4 x 4 or 4 x 3, etc. I udnderstand to a point. Where I don't understand is this doesn't tell me where the Pin is located. Now for example if they would say 5 x 4 with Pinover ringfinger, then it is easy to figure out the drilling and location of everything. If they don't identify where the Pin is located, then it could be over or under fingers. Am I missing something here?

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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income

Edited on 8/30/2004 8:05 PM

JohnP · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2004, 10:40:07 PM »

Brick -- No, you're not missing a thing. As a matter of fact, you're way ahead of most that aren't ball drillers. You're exactly right, the 4 x 4 (for example) identifies the PAP location in relation to the pin and cg (or mass bias). But the grip center can still theoretically be anywhere on a circle with the center on the PAP and the radius defined by the PAP coordinates (for example, 5 1/2" horizontal and 3/4" up). A third parameter is required to set the grip center. Usually that is the pin location in relation to the finger holes (above, below, beside, etc.) while still satisfying the 4 x 4 criteria. Most layouts set the pin either above or below the finger holes, depending on length desired from the ball. I also try to keep the pin at least one inch away from the holes to avoid cracking out (and also voiding the warranty). -- JohnP

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2004, 10:54:31 PM »

Thanks....

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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #5 on:** August 31, 2004, 09:11:30 AM »

Jeff Mop often give 3 measurements,
ie 4 X 4 and up 3 1/2 .... last measurememt is amount pin is above grip center line!

Cool.....and smart!

REgards,

Luckylefty

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 31, 2004, 10:22:59 AM »

quote:
up 3 1/2....last measurememt is amount pin is above grip center line!

LL, still this doesn't identify the Pin location does it? If the last number is 3 1/2" above grip center line this could place Pin straight up the bridge 3 1/2", or above RF 3 1/2" from grip line, or 3 1/2" from center grip line beside and above RF, etc., so the bowler still doesn't know exactly where the Pin is.
However if everyone would use the KISS method and say Pin over bridge, over RF, beside and above RF, etc. then even dummies like myself would immediately know very close to where everything lays. Do you see what I mean here?

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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income

livespive · « **Reply #7 on:** August 31, 2004, 10:47:14 AM »

quote:
quote:
up 3 1/2....last measurment is amount pin is above grip center line!

LL, still this doesn't identify the Pin location does it? If the last number is 3 1/2" above grip center line this could place Pin straight up the bridge 3 1/2", or above RF 3 1/2" from grip line, or 3 1/2" from center grip line beside and above RF, etc., so the bowler still doesn't know exactly where the Pin is.
However if everyone would use the KISS method and say Pin over bridge, over RF, beside and above RF, etc. then even dummies like myself would immediately know very close to where everything lays. Do you see what I mean here?

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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income

There can be only 2 places on the ball that the pin can be 3-1/2" up while being 4" away.

Think of a triangle. The hypotenuse is the 4" measurement, and the 3-1/2" measurement is the vertical leg. If you slide that 3-1/2" measurement across
the grip center line there are only two places where you can have the 4" measurement and be 3-1/2 " up, and one is on the left side of the VAL and the other is on the right.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
http://www.visionarybowling.com

Edited on 8/31/2004 10:47 AM

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 31, 2004, 11:59:46 AM »

quote:

There can be only 2 places on the ball that the pin can be 3-1/2" up while being 4" away.

Think of a triangle. The hypotenuse is the 4" measurement, and the 3-1/2" measurement is the vertical leg. If you slide that 3-1/2" measurement across
the grip center line there are only two places where you can have the 4" measurement and be 3-1/2 " up, and one is on the left side of the VAL and the other is on the right.
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Eric, I understand what you're saying and as you said, there are only two places you can have a 4" measurement, so now, the person has to figure out if it is to the right or to the left of the VAL. The whole point I am making is that most people don't understand these numbers, but if you said above bridge, above and beside RF etc, they would easily understand the ball layout. For example, if I had a ball for sale and you wanted to buy it but it would depend on it's current layout and you asked me what the lay-out was I would tell you 4 x 4 with Pin beside and slightly above RF. Now for example, if my PAP was 1/2 down and not 1/2 up ( a 1" difference ) then the Pin could still be beside RF, but slightly down and not up.

Do you see what I am saying? The 4 x 4 and up 3 1/2 does not put the pin in a spefic place because as you said, it could be right of the VAL or Left of the VAL and for example, placed beside RF it could be a high Pin or a not so High Pin.....Maybe I am thinking from "the left side of brain" here, but for people like myself, the example of the description I gave is more understandable to us simpletons. Now if we were all ball lay-out or drilling Gurus, then I'm sure your language would be more understandable but the example I gave of saying specifically where the PIN is is understandable to us simpletons and the Gurus
would still know where the PIN was located.

For whatever reason, I just can't understand what is so hard to saying the PIN is located at

??. No estimated or guess work involved here. I am very poor when it comes to explaining something and etc, but do you understabd what I am saying?

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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income

Edited on 8/31/2004 11:54 AM

livespive · « **Reply #9 on:** August 31, 2004, 01:47:14 PM »

The only thing is who places the pin to the right of the VAL?
Using your example about the pap being 1/2" down it still doesn't matter
because the up measurment is taken from the grip center.

With your example the two bowlers do not have the same pap, so the 4x4
become more than 4x4.

I would say that a pin-by-cg-by-distance from grip center would be a discription for a driller. While pin-by-cg-by-RF description would be more
for someone that is a buyer looking at used balls.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
http://www.visionarybowling.com

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 31, 2004, 08:05:39 PM »

quote:
If you would like to mention where the pin is in reference to the fingers eg. "above ring" that's fine but it really does not matter.

.....but it does matter if the Pin is above or below fingers, right? I am a low rev bowler (old too...thats probably why this is puzzling/troubling to me....lol) and I do know that Pins above fingers do not rev early enough for me, but Pins below fingers do on most balls and......aw shucks, I need to move on to something that I understand. I'm going to quit and give up on this one. Regardless, for me and I'm sure others it is still simpler and more understandable to say Pin under/over Bridge/Ring Finger, etc and CG kicked out 1" or 1 1/2" or 2" or what ever. Thanks to everyone for trying to get it thru my head.

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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income

Author Topic: Layout measurements (Read 2245 times)

DavidKSNK

Layout measurements

JohnP

Re: Layout measurements

Brickguy221

Re: Layout measurements

JohnP

Re: Layout measurements

Brickguy221

Re: Layout measurements

LuckyLefty

Re: Layout measurements

Brickguy221

Re: Layout measurements

livespive

Re: Layout measurements

Brickguy221

Re: Layout measurements

livespive

Re: Layout measurements

Brickguy221

Re: Layout measurements