Author Topic: Layout Question (Read 4244 times)

tdub36tjt · « **on:** February 05, 2010, 01:15:47 PM »

So first off I haven't had my PAP checked in a while, gonna do that this week and make sure its still the same. As of last time I checked its 4 3/8 over 3/8 down. Also, I am not positive on what my axis tilt is but I would say it is low. Another thing I plan on checking this week coming up.

Now here is my issue, I can't seem to get the ball through the midlane after the first transition of the night. No matter which house the outside dries from people playing out and I am stuck not being able to get the ball down the lane. I am not looking for any ball suggestions just layout for this. I am almost positive that this would be from low axis tilt..?? But I can't even get my Link down the lane and its drilled 5" to axis MB in the thumb.

charlest · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2010, 09:27:02 PM »

quote:
Now here is my issue, I can't seem to get the ball through the midlane after the first transition of the night. No matter which house the outside dries from people playing out and I am stuck not being able to get the ball down the lane. I am not looking for any ball suggestions just layout for this. I am almost positive that this would be from low axis tilt..?? But I can't even get my Link down the lane and its drilled 5" to axis MB in the thumb.

As so many people have said, more details are needed.

What is the oil pattern and amount?
What balls and drillings and surfaces (different from stock) have you tried?

What is your tilt?
Measure the diameter of the first ring of oil on the ball.
Then check the table. 10.5" - 20 degrees, 11" = 17 degrees, etc.

I can't believe that NO ball will clear the heads for you. what are the dual angles or the exact drilling of that Link?
and how are you playing the pattern: board hit at the arrows and the breakpoint?

etc.. etc.!!

without details, even Mo can't help you.

--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Sir Bowl-A-Lot · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2010, 09:30:15 PM »

quote:
without details, even Mo can't help you.

Which may be a good thing.

charlest · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2010, 10:10:08 PM »

quote:
quote:
without details, even Mo can't help you.

Which may be a good thing.

if you have nothing positive to contribute ....
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

tdub36tjt · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2010, 10:18:16 PM »

Its not I can't clear the heads its more the mid-lane that kills me, like around the 35 ft mark my ball just hits the first sign of friction and hooks.

The patterns are around 41' THS medium- medium heavy (when fresh), but to be honest I have trouble getting the ball far enough down the lane on PBA shots a lot of times.

I usually have a good look to start play around 27 with the feet 15 at the arrows to about 7 at the breakpoint. I can usually make a 3 and 2 board adjustment late first game and it'll will last till about half-way through the 2nd game. Then this is where I can only seem to find a consistent look hooking the lane playing about 25 or so at the arrows with something stronger. I'd be around 20 to 7 with a Link fighting 9 pins/flat 10 pins. Anything right of that I am looking at the ball grabbing too much in the mids. It just seems the more left I move the more it hooks.

I'll find out my tilt in the next few days and let you know. I don't have a prosec here but from what I can tell I'd say its around 10 degrees.

Not sure on the angles again on the Link, but its around 5 x 4 1/2 2 1/2" pin buffer. I can find that out for you and give you that info this week. Everything I throw wants to hook the second it reaches I have tried several surfaces (2000,4000,4000 polished and 500 polished). The more surface the worse it gets but even with a good coat of polish I am struggling to get the ball down past 35'. Unless I move to at least middle arrow then I am fighting the 9 pins and 10 pins scenerio.

For more reference my Lunatic drilled 4 3/4 x 3 pushes me even deeper and is even worse getting it through the mids. I just don't want to be that deep. Also, I throw a friends Natural and that thing hooks at my feet, but is the best look I can get staying right cause it has literally no backend. I tried a pin on axis drilling didn't help much though. Ball still checked up way to early.

I am thinking about going about 6 1/2" pin to axis pin above and left of middle finger and mass bias about an inch left of the thumb on a Clutch Pearl but I am really at a loss. I will get you the other info though.

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2010, 10:25:17 PM »

It sounds to me like you need use a different line. Do you absolutely have to bounce the ball off the 7 board? I mean you seem to have a pretty steep angle going on there.

Also if the outsides are drying up from too much use, why not play further inside?

I have found at our house the breakpoint needs to be kept inside of the 10 board you you don't want the ball to go dead left at the end of the pattern.

If you really must look at a new drill pattern I would suggest trying a 2x4 on a mid RG pearl. With the pin only 2" off your PAP the weightblock doesnt have far to go before it stabilizes. So, by the time the ball comes off the pattern, the core is already laid down and the ball will be calmer on the backend.

--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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tdub36tjt · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2010, 10:36:38 PM »

I see what your saying, I just am looking to create room. Its not that I am completely lost and can't find the pocket. And playing inside like that makes the pattern even tighter for me. Even on a pattern like the Shark I have to move my feet to about 45 to play a breakpoint of 12. I have no problem with long oil getting the ball to face up. It's just that little miss outside on a house shot for me that takes off through the face. And a little in its gone too.

quote:
It sounds to me like you need use a different line. Do you absolutely have to bounce the ball off the 7 board? I mean you seem to have a pretty steep angle going on there.

Also if the outsides are drying up from too much use, why not play further inside?

I have found at our house the breakpoint needs to be kept inside of the 10 board you you don't want the ball to go dead left at the end of the pattern.

If you really must look at a new drill pattern I would suggest trying a 2x4 on a mid RG pearl. With the pin only 2" off your PAP the weightblock doesnt have far to go before it stabilizes. So, by the time the ball comes off the pattern, the core is already laid down and the ball will be calmer on the backend.

--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

charlest · « **Reply #7 on:** February 06, 2010, 07:04:55 AM »

Doug could have a point there. In my Friday league, outside of 7 board is ferociously dry - for all intents and purposes, an out of bounds - while inside, it can be quite oily. Only those with very mild revs (I mean 3 - 5 revs fron arrows to pocket) or exceptional ball speed (19 or so mph at the pin deck) play a breakpoint around 5. I play 13/14/15 at the arrows, with a breakpointbetween 8 & 10 board, with a polished Blue/Green Centaur, which has like 1" of flare.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

tdub36tjt · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2010, 03:23:58 PM »

ok, sorry it took me so long to get all my stats checked again. but anyway, my pap is 4 3/8 over 0 up and down. my track diameter is 12 inches. couldn't find the coversion chart to put that in degrees.

so I decided on a clutch pearl to drill up, was thinking about 6'' pin to axis with a 2 inch pin buffer putting the pin about 2 inches above my bridge. I was wondering what you all thought about that idea and what distance for the mb from the axis.

tdub36tjt · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2010, 03:28:25 PM »

also, about the 2x4 I am not so sure about that because my problem isn't too much backend its just getting the ball through the midlanes that is killing me. most everything I throw is pretty smooth in the back I'm assuming because of my low axis tilt.

the pooh · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2010, 04:31:45 AM »

The 6 1/2" pin to pap and mb left of thumb idea, has in my experience, been VERY skid/flip and can be hard to control and very conditional. I have had better luck with closer pins(to burn some energy earlier) and mb in or left of the thumb( for me about 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 inches from pap).

--------------------
the pooh

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2010, 09:03:21 AM »

well tdub the 2x4 drill let's me project the ball straighter thru the heads and will not overreact in the mids at all...just figured it may help you.

You have such a low track that I wouldn't think you'd have any problem getting the ball down the lane but you never know.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2010, 10:31:39 AM »

Max out your flare. 3-3/8" pin to PAP and a flare increasing x-hole. You want to get so much flare that you start rolling over previous flares, simulating carrydown. Either that or start throwing harder. I've been in your shoes for years and started working on generating higher ball speed for the past two years. You'll find you move a lot less as the lanes breakdown and send more messengers. I know it's easier said than done...
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2010, 11:03:24 AM »

I agree with the 2 inch drilling. When I get the over-reaction from outside and the middle is playing a little tight, I pull out a Ebonite Black Ice and play around 20-22 at the arrows and breakpoint around 12-13 with this layout. I also have the ball at 4000 with Magic Shine. The only thing I worry about is carrying the corner pins. But rather shoot 210s than 170s due to over/under. All you are doing is compounding the issue by going with 5 1/2-6 inch drillings because yeah you are getting push, but that push conserves energy for when it encounters friction and when it does, may as well add a turn signal to the ball. You need a layout and cover prep to even out that reaction to help keep the ball in play.
--------------------

If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!

J_w73 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2010, 11:37:08 AM »

quote:
I agree with the 2 inch drilling. When I get the over-reaction from outside and the middle is playing a little tight, I pull out a Ebonite Black Ice and play around 20-22 at the arrows and breakpoint around 12-13 with this layout. I also have the ball at 4000 with Magic Shine. The only thing I worry about is carrying the corner pins. But rather shoot 210s than 170s due to over/under. All you are doing is compounding the issue by going with 5 1/2-6 inch drillings because yeah you are getting push, but that push conserves energy for when it encounters friction and when it does, may as well add a turn signal to the ball. You need a layout and cover prep to even out that reaction to help keep the ball in play.
--------------------

If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!

I would agree with this.. I layed out a ball with a 6 1/4 inch pin to pap cause I didn't want it to hook early..thinking it would get me length.. well it does go long but when it hits the dry on the backend it is super snappy.. and then if I try to put less rotation on it the ball just transitions quick and rolls out..

I'm going through the same thing as the original poster..
you need a ball / layout that will transition slower..
you can also over exagerate your axis rotation.... but with longer pin balls it will create some over under reaction..

--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185

Author Topic: Layout Question (Read 4244 times)

tdub36tjt

Layout Question

charlest

Re: Layout Question

Sir Bowl-A-Lot

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charlest

Re: Layout Question

tdub36tjt

Re: Layout Question

Doug Sterner

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tdub36tjt

Re: Layout Question

charlest

Re: Layout Question

tdub36tjt

Re: Layout Question

tdub36tjt

Re: Layout Question

the pooh

Re: Layout Question

Doug Sterner

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kmanestor22

Re: Layout Question

TWOHAND834

Re: Layout Question

J_w73

Re: Layout Question