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Author Topic: Layout Question?  (Read 3186 times)

Strapper_Squared

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Layout Question?
« on: January 22, 2007, 03:39:38 AM »
In a typical layout, we specify the distance from the pin to the PAP and the distance from the mass bias to the PAP (or the angle of the pin/mb line from the PAP line).  This gets us pretty close, but doesn't exactly nail down the layout as there is one more variable that needs to be specified.  Most often, I have seen pin distance above the midline as the last variable.  Pins closer to the midline roll earlier and have more of an arcing reaction, while pins further above the midline comparatively go longer and have a sharper backend reaction.  In a number of recent layout videos, I have noticed that instead of specifying the pin distance above the midline, they are using the pin distance from the VAL.  What are the general characteristics of pin placements that are relatively close to the VAL (say within 1.5") versus pin placements that are further away from the VAL?  Obviously, the limitation of distance between the pin and VAL is going to be the pin to PAP distance of the given layout.  This would be equivalent to placing the pin on the midline.  Is the distance from the VAL just another way to specify pin height above the midline?

Thanks in advance,

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JohnP

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2007, 02:12:51 PM »
SS -- This is the system developed by Storm using what they call "pin buffer".  I'm not very familiar with it, but I think you can find an explanation on their website, either in the layouts or their technical section.  --  JohnP
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Strapper_Squared

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2007, 03:12:10 PM »
Hmmm... from the domination layout sheet:

DEFINITIONS
Pin Buffer: Horizontal distance
between Pin and
Perpendicular Axis Line

Determines the ‘Angularity’
of the ball motion (smaller distances increase backend reaction)

1 1/2" buffer is angular... 2 1/2 is arc and 3 1/2 is control.  It appears as though there is no real correlation with pin height above the midline...  Seems like a quite simple method for laying out equipment though.

Thanks for the heads up John.

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Edited on 1/22/2007 4:27 PM
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charlest

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2007, 06:48:03 PM »
Strapper,

It's just another way of combining pin above the midline with pin distance from the PAP.

Remember that, while the ball's length down the lane is aided by placing the pin higher above the midline, what is more significant, in my opinion, is that the ball reaction at the breakpoint is getting more flippy. That is, it is going through the skid/hook/roll transition much more quickly. The same ball with a lower pin position, not necessarily below the bridge area, goes through that transition more slowly; it arcs, or the ball path is more of a curve than a hockey stick. Yes, it also reacts earlier but that, similar to the higher position, is not as significant, in my eyes, as the fact that it's going through the transition more slowly.

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chitown

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 09:15:12 AM »
I agree that pins closer to the mid line tend to be smoother than pins above the fingers.  However I really feel the CG or MB location is what determins the flip or arc.  I have a TOXIC that is drilled with the pin almost next to the ring but a little lower and CG in grip center.  This is close to a label leverage layout.  One would think this would be a good arc type layout but it's not.  This ball flips and has a big back end.  I was shocked by this.  I always thought that label leverage was a good layout to give an arc type reaction.  Boy was I wrong!  I know the TOXIC is a skid flip ball but certain layouts can take the flip out of a ball.

Don't get me wrong I like the reaction a lot but was just surprised by it.

If I want the TOXIC to arc rather than flip it would of been better for me to use the same pin location but kick the CG to a 25 degree type angle.  This would create the arc type reaction.
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Edited on 1/25/2007 10:17 AM
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Moon57

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 09:54:41 AM »
I'm been having a hard time understanding how moving the pin above or below the fingers gives more length or less length. For instance, if I want the pin 4" from my pap I take a compass and set it for 4" on the prosect. Now I draw a 4" circle using the pap as the center point. I can place the pin anyplace on that 4" circle and the pin (core) axis will always have the same relationship to the nap - pap axis. The only thing that changes is the relationship between the grip and the pin (core) axis which also changes the rotational position of the pin (core) when the ball touches the alley. Is the rotational position of the pin (core) when the ball touches the alley the factor that causes more or less length? Help.
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JohnP

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 10:21:39 AM »
quote:
I agree that pins closer to the mid line tend to be smoother than pins above the fingers. However I really feel the CG or MB location is what determins the flip or arc.


Yes, and by specifying the pin to PAP, pin to CG or MB, and pin buffer (that's the three measurements Storm uses), you have determined the exact MB location, although indirectly.  --  JohnP
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BrunsNick

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2007, 02:30:16 AM »
Why don't you two just kiss while you're at it...

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Moon57

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2007, 01:08:37 AM »
Quote from BrunsRich:
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  The reason why pin height changes shape is where the holes are placed in the core and how it is reshaped, as well as the dynamics changed, i.e. the RG is increased or decreased and the differential is changed.

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Sorry I didn't thank you and the other guys for the replys to my question. I've got to start using the search user name function. There are so many msgs on this forum it's easy to lose a thread.




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JohnP

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Re: Layout Question?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2007, 09:19:11 AM »
Deadbait -- Great post, thanks.  I do agree you can do more with surface changes than with layout, but when you combine the two so that the ball matches up with the bowler, you've got a winner.  --  JohnP
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