Author Topic: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls (Read 29924 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** June 18, 2024, 02:56:25 AM »

I've never done well with stronger cover / big asymmetric bowling balls. My release and speed isn't strong enough to get these balls down the lane, and still have energy at the pins. If anything they just move a few boards, roll forward too soon, and have no backend or recovery. More oil means they hook less, and do less. More surface doesn't mean more hook, it usually just means rolling forward sooner and doing nothing. I have pretty low tilt. Just wondering if there are specific layouts that might help get better reaction out of these type of balls?

MJS73 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2024, 06:30:03 AM »

Try a layout something like 70 x 5 x 45. I just put that layout on a Black Widow 3.0 and it’s been terrific. Keep in mind I’m not telling you to put that exact layout on a ball, your angles should be determined by your ball speed, rev rate, track, etc. For comparison, my ball speed is 14.5, rev rate 340 and PAP 5.25 right and .5 up.

SVstar34 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2024, 10:28:10 AM »

Quote from: J_w73 on June 18, 2024, 02:56:25 AM

I've never done well with stronger cover / big asymmetric bowling balls. My release and speed isn't strong enough to get these balls down the lane, and still have energy at the pins. If anything they just move a few boards, roll forward too soon, and have no backend or recovery. More oil means they hook less, and do less. More surface doesn't mean more hook, it usually just means rolling forward sooner and doing nothing. I have pretty low tilt. Just wondering if there are specific layouts that might help get better reaction out of these type of balls?

What's layout(s) have you typically used?

If you have really low tilt on top of lower speed, you may be better off going short pin. Big asymms retain tilt longer with shorter pin positions and lose tilt quicker with longer pin-pap.

I've had success going 3.5" x 4.5" x 3.5" pin down and 2.25" x 4.5" x 2" pin up (short pin layout)

I've made grip and timing/release adjustments recently so when I just checked, my tilt has increased to 10-15°. Even though I've brought my tilt up into what's considered the normal range, I'll probably still err on the retaining tilt side because my normal release miss is still getting up the back of the ball with less tilt

J_w73 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2024, 02:26:00 PM »

Quote from: SVstar34 on June 18, 2024, 10:28:10 AM

Quote from: J_w73 on June 18, 2024, 02:56:25 AM
I've never done well with stronger cover / big asymmetric bowling balls. My release and speed isn't strong enough to get these balls down the lane, and still have energy at the pins. If anything they just move a few boards, roll forward too soon, and have no backend or recovery. More oil means they hook less, and do less. More surface doesn't mean more hook, it usually just means rolling forward sooner and doing nothing. I have pretty low tilt. Just wondering if there are specific layouts that might help get better reaction out of these type of balls?

What's layout(s) have you typically used?

If you have really low tilt on top of lower speed, you may be better off going short pin. Big asymms retain tilt longer with shorter pin positions and lose tilt quicker with longer pin-pap.

I've had success going 3.5" x 4.5" x 3.5" pin down and 2.25" x 4.5" x 2" pin up (short pin layout)

I've made grip and timing/release adjustments recently so when I just checked, my tilt has increased to 10-15°. Even though I've brought my tilt up into what's considered the normal range, I'll probably still err on the retaining tilt side because my normal release miss is still getting up the back of the ball with less tilt

Usually 4 1/2 to 5 inch pin up drillings, MB in the thumb or close to it.. which I know promote a quicker transition from hook to roll. I've had success with some balls and cores (Sure Lock, Widow, No Mercy), but others are just horrible. I was thinking of doing what you suggested, but just wanted to hear if others have been successful. Thank you.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2024, 06:40:33 AM »

Quote from: J_w73 on June 18, 2024, 02:56:25 AM

I've never done well with stronger cover / big asymmetric bowling balls. My release and speed isn't strong enough to get these balls down the lane, and still have energy at the pins. If anything they just move a few boards, roll forward too soon, and have no backend or recovery. More oil means they hook less, and do less. More surface doesn't mean more hook, it usually just means rolling forward sooner and doing nothing. I have pretty low tilt. Just wondering if there are specific layouts that might help get better reaction out of these type of balls?

What does your axis rotation look like? If you are a high track player with very little axis rotation then layouts wont help as much if you have low ball speed. I would never recommend a high end asym like the Gem series for someone with lower ball speed anyway for the reasons you describe above. I have a teammate that is 75 years old and off his hand his speed might be 14 mph. For him on our higher volume house shot, even a mid performance ball forces him into 15 - 17 board on the fresh. He was using a Web Pearl and a Night Road. The issue is that he doesnt really have the rev rate to get the ball to continue on the backend. If he moves right, the cover strength is too much and the ball wants to read too early. I asked him where his comfort zone is and he said closer to 10-12 boards. I recommended a Hustle for two main reasons. The first is the cover is weak by comparison to what he was using and the second thing was it had a high RG so the ball would want to skid further down lane before wanting to get into a roll. He drills one up and was able to get into his comfort zone and his average increased by 15 pins as a result.

So my question is this. If you have lower ball speed and not a lot of rev rate; why do you feel you need a big hook monster in your hands? If the ball you are using is rolling forward and not hooking much; it could be a result of the ball being too much too early and you are not matched up. You would actually need to go in the opposite direction and drill something with a higher RG and medium strength cover. Changing your layout will only do so much as coverstocks are 70% of ball reaction. Even going short pin; the cover never changes. Do you change the surface on them from say 1500-2000 which is standard out of box finish nowadays to more like 4000 or even adding some compound so the cover does not want to dig so early? If you did and still got the same result then you just dont match up to that type of ball. If what you say is true in that you just dont have the strength and release to get those balls down the lane, then the most I might recommend is like a Phaze 2. The cover still has some strength to it but the RG is higher which will allow the ball to get down the lane a bit easier and still has the differential to help the ball get around the corner. IMO, unless your ball speed is at least 17 at release; you dont need an asym unless it is something mid - high RG. The only asym ball I can think of that you might get away with is the new Ion by Storm. It has a lower RG but the diff is really low. It is basically an asym IQ Tour. But if you say you never do well with high end asyms, then just stay away. Lower ball speed players tend to match up better with mid-high RG balls with low to mid performance covers.

J_w73 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 20, 2024, 12:48:16 AM »

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 19, 2024, 06:40:33 AM

Quote from: J_w73 on June 18, 2024, 02:56:25 AM
I've never done well with stronger cover / big asymmetric bowling balls. My release and speed isn't strong enough to get these balls down the lane, and still have energy at the pins. If anything they just move a few boards, roll forward too soon, and have no backend or recovery. More oil means they hook less, and do less. More surface doesn't mean more hook, it usually just means rolling forward sooner and doing nothing. I have pretty low tilt. Just wondering if there are specific layouts that might help get better reaction out of these type of balls?

What does your axis rotation look like? If you are a high track player with very little axis rotation then layouts wont help as much if you have low ball speed. ................... IMO, unless your ball speed is at least 17 at release; you dont need an asym unless it is something mid - high RG. The only asym ball I can think of that you might get away with is the new Ion by Storm. It has a lower RG but the diff is really low. It is basically an asym IQ Tour. But if you say you never do well with high end asyms, then just stay away. Lower ball speed players tend to match up better with mid-high RG balls with low to mid performance covers.

On my Gem, I did polish it up and it reacted way better and I was able to use it a lot more.. Even when we were bowling on heavy oil, putting the surface to lower than 2000 didn't make the ball hook any more.. When I polished it up, it actually made more of a move, and had more recovery, and room for error. My speed is probably around 16.5 to 17 mph off my hand.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 20, 2024, 06:47:52 AM »

Quote from: J_w73 on June 20, 2024, 12:48:16 AM

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 19, 2024, 06:40:33 AM
Quote from: J_w73 on June 18, 2024, 02:56:25 AM
I've never done well with stronger cover / big asymmetric bowling balls. My release and speed isn't strong enough to get these balls down the lane, and still have energy at the pins. If anything they just move a few boards, roll forward too soon, and have no backend or recovery. More oil means they hook less, and do less. More surface doesn't mean more hook, it usually just means rolling forward sooner and doing nothing. I have pretty low tilt. Just wondering if there are specific layouts that might help get better reaction out of these type of balls?

What does your axis rotation look like? If you are a high track player with very little axis rotation then layouts wont help as much if you have low ball speed. ................... IMO, unless your ball speed is at least 17 at release; you dont need an asym unless it is something mid - high RG. The only asym ball I can think of that you might get away with is the new Ion by Storm. It has a lower RG but the diff is really low. It is basically an asym IQ Tour. But if you say you never do well with high end asyms, then just stay away. Lower ball speed players tend to match up better with mid-high RG balls with low to mid performance covers.

On my Gem, I did polish it up and it reacted way better and I was able to use it a lot more.. Even when we were bowling on heavy oil, putting the surface to lower than 2000 didn't make the ball hook any more.. When I polished it up, it actually made more of a move, and had more recovery, and room for error. My speed is probably around 16.5 to 17 mph off my hand.

So basically what the Gem is trying to tell you is that it is too strong for your style. You can probably get away with using an asym but you need to tone it back on strength a little bit so it is more usable for your needs. Cheapbowlingballs.com has a bunch of asyms on clearance right now. You could look into a Clone, Infinity, and Emerge just to name a few. The RGs are in the low 2.5s so the ball will want to go further down the lane before the core wants to start taking over as well as a milder cover to help with push through the front part of the lane. I would be willing to bet hybrids would work well for you as well since the cover wont want to dig into the lane surface as quickly. But either way, look into something with the core in the 2.5s to help with length as well as a milder cover. With no polish, the Gem is too much too soon and as a result is using up its energy and has nothing left for the backend. A layout change is not going to help that ball and will end up just frustrating you more in the long run.

J_w73 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 20, 2024, 01:53:27 PM »

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 20, 2024, 06:47:52 AM

Quote from: J_w73 on June 20, 2024, 12:48:16 AM
Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 19, 2024, 06:40:33 AM
Quote from: J_w73 on June 18, 2024, 02:56:25 AM
I've never done well with stronger cover / big asymmetric bowling balls. My release and speed isn't strong enough to get these balls down the lane, and still have energy at the pins. If anything they just move a few boards, roll forward too soon, and have no backend or recovery. More oil means they hook less, and do less. More surface doesn't mean more hook, it usually just means rolling forward sooner and doing nothing. I have pretty low tilt. Just wondering if there are specific layouts that might help get better reaction out of these type of balls?

What does your axis rotation look like? If you are a high track player with very little axis rotation then layouts wont help as much if you have low ball speed. ................... IMO, unless your ball speed is at least 17 at release; you dont need an asym unless it is something mid - high RG. The only asym ball I can think of that you might get away with is the new Ion by Storm. It has a lower RG but the diff is really low. It is basically an asym IQ Tour. But if you say you never do well with high end asyms, then just stay away. Lower ball speed players tend to match up better with mid-high RG balls with low to mid performance covers.

On my Gem, I did polish it up and it reacted way better and I was able to use it a lot more.. Even when we were bowling on heavy oil, putting the surface to lower than 2000 didn't make the ball hook any more.. When I polished it up, it actually made more of a move, and had more recovery, and room for error. My speed is probably around 16.5 to 17 mph off my hand.

So basically what the Gem is trying to tell you is that it is too strong for your style. You can probably get away with using an asym but you need to tone it back on strength a little bit so it is more usable for your needs. Cheapbowlingballs.com has a bunch of asyms on clearance right now. You could look into a Clone, Infinity, and Emerge just to name a few. The RGs are in the low 2.5s so the ball will want to go further down the lane before the core wants to start taking over as well as a milder cover to help with push through the front part of the lane. I would be willing to bet hybrids would work well for you as well since the cover wont want to dig into the lane surface as quickly. But either way, look into something with the core in the 2.5s to help with length as well as a milder cover. With no polish, the Gem is too much too soon and as a result is using up its energy and has nothing left for the backend. A layout change is not going to help that ball and will end up just frustrating you more in the long run.

Thanks for the advice. I neglected to answer you about my rotation. I also for some reason just can't match up with my rotation when using strong core and cover balls on heavier/longer oil either. On stronger balls, I can get around the ball, but they then just hydroplane, go too long, and never read enough. Or I am too flat and the ball just rolls forward and rolls out. I'm thinking about drilling up a ball with max side weight so maybe that side weight may help move the ball left. I'm not sure if some cores or balls are also better at hooking when reving/going forward. I know it doesn't make much sense, but I was at a tournament and a guy had an eternity pi, didn't have a ton of revs, and pretty much coming up the back of the ball with very little side rotation, and somehow that ball kept moving left. Not sure how that is possible, but he was doing it.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #8 on:** June 20, 2024, 03:21:50 PM »

You're looking at your ball reaction as only backend motion only. Strong core/cover balls are not balls you are going to use to circle the ball. If you watch the PBA guys you will see about the only time they use those balls are on short high volume patterns to control the breakpoint (the way the high rev guys control the breakpoint with urethane), and early on long patterns when they need the ball to read the lane. In both instances when they have to move and need to circle it more they change balls. Balls like the Gem are essentially one game balls on the fresh for all but the real low rev guys.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 21, 2024, 06:18:22 AM »

Quote from: J_w73 on June 20, 2024, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 20, 2024, 06:47:52 AM
Quote from: J_w73 on June 20, 2024, 12:48:16 AM
Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 19, 2024, 06:40:33 AM
Quote from: J_w73 on June 18, 2024, 02:56:25 AM
I've never done well with stronger cover / big asymmetric bowling balls. My release and speed isn't strong enough to get these balls down the lane, and still have energy at the pins. If anything they just move a few boards, roll forward too soon, and have no backend or recovery. More oil means they hook less, and do less. More surface doesn't mean more hook, it usually just means rolling forward sooner and doing nothing. I have pretty low tilt. Just wondering if there are specific layouts that might help get better reaction out of these type of balls?

What does your axis rotation look like? If you are a high track player with very little axis rotation then layouts wont help as much if you have low ball speed. ................... IMO, unless your ball speed is at least 17 at release; you dont need an asym unless it is something mid - high RG. The only asym ball I can think of that you might get away with is the new Ion by Storm. It has a lower RG but the diff is really low. It is basically an asym IQ Tour. But if you say you never do well with high end asyms, then just stay away. Lower ball speed players tend to match up better with mid-high RG balls with low to mid performance covers.

On my Gem, I did polish it up and it reacted way better and I was able to use it a lot more.. Even when we were bowling on heavy oil, putting the surface to lower than 2000 didn't make the ball hook any more.. When I polished it up, it actually made more of a move, and had more recovery, and room for error. My speed is probably around 16.5 to 17 mph off my hand.

So basically what the Gem is trying to tell you is that it is too strong for your style. You can probably get away with using an asym but you need to tone it back on strength a little bit so it is more usable for your needs. Cheapbowlingballs.com has a bunch of asyms on clearance right now. You could look into a Clone, Infinity, and Emerge just to name a few. The RGs are in the low 2.5s so the ball will want to go further down the lane before the core wants to start taking over as well as a milder cover to help with push through the front part of the lane. I would be willing to bet hybrids would work well for you as well since the cover wont want to dig into the lane surface as quickly. But either way, look into something with the core in the 2.5s to help with length as well as a milder cover. With no polish, the Gem is too much too soon and as a result is using up its energy and has nothing left for the backend. A layout change is not going to help that ball and will end up just frustrating you more in the long run.

Thanks for the advice. I neglected to answer you about my rotation. I also for some reason just can't match up with my rotation when using strong core and cover balls on heavier/longer oil either. On stronger balls, I can get around the ball, but they then just hydroplane, go too long, and never read enough. Or I am too flat and the ball just rolls forward and rolls out. I'm thinking about drilling up a ball with max side weight so maybe that side weight may help move the ball left. I'm not sure if some cores or balls are also better at hooking when reving/going forward. I know it doesn't make much sense, but I was at a tournament and a guy had an eternity pi, didn't have a ton of revs, and pretty much coming up the back of the ball with very little side rotation, and somehow that ball kept moving left. Not sure how that is possible, but he was doing it.

Conventional wisdom would have just about anyone believe that a ball like the Gem is going to be the play on longer patterns. If you were to speak to a touring pro; they would tell you almost the exact opposite. When you are on a longer pattern; obviously you have a shorter distance from the end of the pattern to the pins. So actually you need a ball that will give you more help on the backend. A Gem would be a ball that would shine on a medium length pattern with a ton of volume in the first 20 feet. The cover would help with the volume but then offer the control off the end of the pattern. You watch the Tour on TV on patterns like the Dragon; they are throwing balls that are more for the backend. The Attention Star and Virtual Energy Blackout were about the most popular balls out there this season and if you look at them, they are polished pearl asyms. The Brunswick guys were throwing balls like the Hammer Black Widow 2.0 Hybrid. If you look at Simonsen when he used the Gem, it was playing near the track and humming it at 19-20 mph. On longer patterns you play in and need something for backend. I have never been a fan of asyms when playing inside because it requires you to be too perfect with your release and they tend to want to go forward and not be as continuous. I much prefer stronger symmetricals because they can be more forgiving.

J_w73 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 25, 2024, 03:41:07 PM »

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 21, 2024, 06:18:22 AM

Conventional wisdom would have just about anyone believe that a ball like the Gem is going to be the play on longer patterns. If you were to speak to a touring pro; they would tell you almost the exact opposite. When you are on a longer pattern; obviously you have a shorter distance from the end of the pattern to the pins. So actually you need a ball that will give you more help on the backend. A Gem would be a ball that would shine on a medium length pattern with a ton of volume in the first 20 feet. The cover would help with the volume but then offer the control off the end of the pattern. You watch the Tour on TV on patterns like the Dragon; they are throwing balls that are more for the backend. The Attention Star and Virtual Energy Blackout were about the most popular balls out there this season and if you look at them, they are polished pearl asyms. The Brunswick guys were throwing balls like the Hammer Black Widow 2.0 Hybrid. If you look at Simonsen when he used the Gem, it was playing near the track and humming it at 19-20 mph. On longer patterns you play in and need something for backend. I have never been a fan of asyms when playing inside because it requires you to be too perfect with your release and they tend to want to go forward and not be as continuous. I much prefer stronger symmetricals because they can be more forgiving.

Thanks for the information.

BowlinStr8t · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2024, 01:07:20 PM »

I think you could go with something like 80 x 3.5 x 30 I think you drill the ball to get length and the 80 degrees on the first number would help accomplish that. Just an idea

J_w73 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2024, 11:41:46 PM »

Quote from: BowlinStr8t on June 26, 2024, 01:07:20 PM

I think you could go with something like 80 x 3.5 x 30 I think you drill the ball to get length and the 80 degrees on the first number would help accomplish that. Just an idea

Isn't that going to put the MB on the left of the thumb? Won't the ball have little to no flare with the MB close to the track?

BowlinStr8t · « **Reply #13 on:** June 29, 2024, 04:41:47 PM »

Yes, it will. Left of the thumb will create added length and usually the bigger assym roll/burn early. Just a thought to try.

bowler33 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 29, 2024, 05:25:34 PM »

I have a UFO drilled 70X3 1/2X 30 and it is amazing. That puts the MB at the bottom of the thumb hole for me. Half of it is drilled out and half is showing. It gives me good length and a fairly sharp and continuous back end.

Author Topic: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls (Read 29924 times)

J_w73

Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

MJS73

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

SVstar34

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

J_w73

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

TWOHAND834

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

J_w73

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

TWOHAND834

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

J_w73

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

itsallaboutme

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

TWOHAND834

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

J_w73

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

BowlinStr8t

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

J_w73

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

BowlinStr8t

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls

bowler33

Re: Layout to get the most out of strong cover / big asymmetric bowling balls