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Author Topic: Layout upside down????  (Read 6310 times)

Oldskool2

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Layout upside down????
« on: July 23, 2008, 06:53:55 AM »
A guy who plays league with me had his new RG Mystic drilled today.

When I looked at the balls layout, I saw someting strange.

The ball was drilled pin slightly up. The CG mark was above his pin and the Rotogrip logo with the star was under his thumb.

I think his "driller" thought this was a ball with a mass bias marking and switched the logo and the CG.

What reaction can you expect when the ball is drilled upside down, so the CG is above the pin?

Greetings,

Antoine
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Jepp114

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 03:27:43 PM »
does it look like this:
http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/mario/mario_315degreelayout.htm

It's called a 315 degree layout.
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Oldskool2

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2008, 03:41:42 PM »
Unfortunately not.

The mystic is a symmetric ball, so there's no mass bias marking.
If the theoretical MB is on a line from pin to CG and down 6 3/4 inches, the MB would be straight above the fingers

The ball has a pin distance of 1-2" and there's no weighthole.

The ball has negative flare in my opinion.

Antoine
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shelley

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 03:50:55 PM »
I think you're right.  Morich marks their MB with a four-pronged star, maybe he left his brain home that day.  Could be the 315* layout, but you don't usually do that with a symmetric ball.

SH
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Goof1073

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2008, 04:13:20 PM »
I've had a couple symmetric balls drilled with a 315...didn't see anything wrong with them.

This drilling is interesting...almost like a Patrick Gerard / Rico mix (less the hole).  Hmmm...
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Oldskool2

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 04:24:41 PM »
The non marked MB is not at the right side of the pin, but almost straight above. The pin is placed on the right side as on the picture in Jepp's link, but he's a lefty.

The "driller" is not experienced. A long time ago he used to drill and now he wants to pick it up again. Last week I asked him some basic questions like, What when a high tracker flares over the thumb with the bowtie in the finger? Could a low pin be the reason? He answered: I don't know, I have to look into everything again.
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qstick777

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 02:56:52 PM »
Is the ball within legal weights?

From what most (some, whatever) will say, the CG doesn't matter.  Especially with a symmetric core.

Depending on what the beginning top weight was, I'm trying to picture how this ball is legal.  Maybe it was low top weight and/or finger holes without grips (shallower and smaller).

Or, maybe the CG and/or top weight were incorrect and the driller was compensating - although from what you've told us about the driller, it doesn't sound likely.


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jbuzz31

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 03:01:13 PM »
was the ball for a full roller?
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Oldskool2

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 04:26:13 PM »
Hello and thanks for the replies,

What about CGNOMADDAH when it is placed so extreme? This is what I thought after posting last night.

No he has no full roller release.

I will add pictures of the layout to make things more clear. Will be saturday I think.
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qstick777

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2008, 05:00:01 PM »
quote:
Hello and thanks for the replies,

What about CGNOMADDAH when it is placed so extreme? This is what I thought after posting last night.

No he has no full roller release.

I will add pictures of the layout to make things more clear. Will be saturday I think.


Well, I believe the general consensus from the CGNOMADDAH group is that it doesn't matter how extreme the CG is.  Might even go so far to say that static and/or ending weights(*) don't matter either, so in this symmetric ball the pin placement is going to dictate(**) the reaction.

(*) Finger/thumb, side, top/bottom won't play a significant part in the ball reaction.  Your definition of "significant" may differ from somebody else's definition.

(**) Better wording would probably be:  have more of an effect on reaction than the other factors.

And of course, surface prep is going to account for 70% of ball reaction, so make sure to match the surface to the playing conditions.
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Oldskool2

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2008, 05:25:03 PM »
I have mixed feelings on the CG theory. At one side you see the proof in the videos from the tests, on the other side what is believed to be true and logical thinking.

When a ball has no MB marking and you want to do a dual angle layout, you find the "theoretical" MB on the line true the CG.

If the static weight don't matter, why are there rules about them?

If CG is not important, why does every ball manufacturer mark it? Even the companies who are doing constant research on weightblocks/cores and their reaction.

I believe that surface preparation and pin placement are the most important, but don't believe that you can rule out the other factors.

Surface is the most important for me. You can make big or subtle changes whenever you want, without re-drilling. You can have the strongest core and drilling, if the surface isn't right, it will not perform.

P.s. pictures come later, the weather was just to good today.
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Corey C

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2008, 09:20:59 PM »
With the pin low in the thumb negative side and the CG above, the bowtie will also be in the thumb negative and it will flare away from the fingers. If I understand you correctly it is a reverse flare drill. It's an early rolling drill. Typically I see these on balls with 6" pin outs and lots of top weight.
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Mike E

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2008, 07:03:36 PM »
I have several balls drilled with the CG above the pin.I put the pin in the center of my grip and the CG in a 1:30 direction.( I'm right handed.) If a weight hole is needed I put it 6&3/4" from the pin in the same 1:30 direction. My intention was to get the same reaction as a full roller drill but with more length. I've put it on a Blueberry Buzzsaw, Shock Zone Pro,Titan S.E., and an Ebonite Blue Ice. It has been one of my more successful experimental drills. The drill rolls and carries just like a full roller, (hard continuos arc) for me but with more length and less hook.
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Oldskool2

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Re: Layout upside down????
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2008, 04:01:16 AM »
Sorry I didn't reply anymore and didn't add the pictures.

When I went to the bowling the first time after looking into the drilling and posting here, the father of the guy didn't say a thing about it. He's the manager of the bowling and he was the one asking me what I thought of it.

Then his son came and said that I was right about the drilling being wrong. The driller found his brain when he came home and realized that he drilled it righthanded for a lefty.( just tried to copy the sheet I think). I let it rest that there was more wrong than just that.

We said to the father that it was a waste of the new ball. He replied: The "only" thing that's wrong is that it's drilled for a righthander.
He didn't want to make the driller look bad and acted if only a small mistake was made.

So I put time into it, for his sake and he puts me away like a little child.

I will still make pictures of the ball, for myself and you who replied, but don't want to ask for it as you will understand.
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