Author Topic: layouts by your axis point, help please (Read 9270 times)

bowlerstyle · « **on:** February 01, 2004, 11:59:46 PM »

ok say if two different people have two differnet axis points but both have the same exact ball with the same exact specs both laid out with the same drill pattern (for instince a 4x4 or 3 1/2 x 3 1/2) will the ball roll the same?

Constantine · « **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2004, 12:15:23 PM »

Unlike Brian, I don't like these debates, but I couldn't help but throw in two cents on one small part of the discussion.

quote:
Then, why is it you don't see many balls for oil, drilled with the pin closer to your PAP, i.e. 1 1/2 - 2"..? But, you do see many oil drillings/balls drilled with the pin 4 3/4" to 5 1/4" from the PAP. Why is that..?

You don't see many balls drilled with the pin near the PAP because of the risk of flaring over the fingerholes. To compensate for this issue, people use high RG drillings in order to avoid the fingers but still get the same amount of flare. The ball surface is then dulled in order to compensate for the lack of roll.
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Good luck & good bowling

T-GOD · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2004, 01:07:46 PM »

Const, it doesn't matter how close the pin is to the PAP, for worrying about flaring over the fingers, as long as the pin is on a line, or above, from your PAP through the top of the middle finger.

So, 1 1/2 pin to PAP drillings, or closer measurements won't flare over the fingers, as long as the pin is positioned properly, as with any longer pin to PAP distances. =:^D

hskrntx · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2004, 01:27:54 PM »

My two cents worth: I have a low inverted track (rt 4 3/8", dn 5/8") and I once drilled a Ninja RPM with a 4" pin, I placed the pin ON my PAP. This ball was wonderful from the outside on DRY lanes. It would break late and smooth into the pocket and carry very well. I kept it dull, not polished. I have since dropped in weight to 15# equip, (due to elbow probs) but I intend to find another ball soon with a long pin that I can once again place on my PAP to see if I still get the same reaction!
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Husker Fan living in:
San Angelo, Texas

T-GOD · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2004, 01:56:35 PM »

Brian,

quote:
quote:
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With the core/pin closer towards your PAP, as I've stated many times, the ball goes longer before it hooks..!! So, in reality, when your putting the pin farther from your PAP, it's ending up closer to your PAP as it's going down the lane, making the ball go longer. This explains why putting the pin farther from your PAP, in these strong mass bias core/asymmetrical, makes the ball go longer. But, in reality, the core/pin is not farther from your PAP, IT'S CLOSER TO YOUR PAP..!!
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All I can say to this is...what drugs were you on when you wrote it? Make up your mind.. The pin closer to the PAP makes the ball go long or the pin farther from your PAP makes the ball go long.

All I can say is that you can't understand what you read. Because, you've taken parts of different statements and put them together, so they don't make sense, without fully understanding what I wrote.

quote:
No...you are wrong because I never said I would move the pin closer to the PAP for a spinner to use in oil.

Doesn't a ball that rolls earlier, usually work better on oil..? You don't want the ball to go long, do you..? A spinners ball goes long, doesn't it..?

quote:
When you put the weight(I'm assuming you mean pin) near the axis point, you are putting the core in a low Rg position. And as everyone in the civilized, ball drilling, free world knows...low Rg equates to earlier roll.

Now if a spinners ball drilled 3 3/8 x 3 3/8 isn't starting up soon enough, without changing the surface, or going to a different ball, how would you make his ball start up sooner, by just changing the drilling. You said "low RG equates to earlier roll". So, I'm assuming, going by what the manufacturers are saying, you would move the pin closer to the PAP, which is a lower RG drilling..?

quote:
No...you are wrong because I never said I would move the pin closer to the PAP for a spinner to use in oil.

Well then, if you wouldn't move the pin closer to the PAP, wouldn't the opposite be the way to move it..?

quote:
quote:
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When you initially put the core farther from your PAP, as the ball rolls down the lane, the core/pin moves closer to your PAP.
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Uh, yea. It's called track flare.

Not all balls do this. I know with a Buzzsaw, the track flares, but the pin distance doesn't change, as the ball travels down the lane.

quote:
WHAAAATTT!!!!!!!!!!!!! You mean you can drill a ball that flares BACKWARDS?? WOW, you are good. The balls core cannot flare away from the PAP.

Brian, did you ever see a ball thrown where the pin started out wobbling, then 1/2 way down the lane, the pin spun perfectly on it's axis (the dot didn't wobble), then on the backends, the pin started wobbling again..? This is what I'm talking about.

Man, I'm teaching you a whole bunch of stuff here. And, it's all for free..!! =:^D

T-GOD · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2004, 02:58:46 PM »

Brian, are we done here..? =:^D

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2004, 07:32:21 AM »

Just for clarification, Tgod is a thinking man and also a Lane#1 disciple.

Lane 1's website repeats his position.

All other ball manufacturers disagree with it.

I'll leave you two or three to fight this one out.

However, did we ever answer this guys question.

I'll try.

Pin position from pap determines total flare. 3 3/8 is maximum.
4 1/2 is 2/3. 2 1/4 from pap also capture 2/3 of total flare potential of a ball. 5 3/4 is 1/3 of total flare possible, 1 1/8 is 1/3 of total flare possible.

To me this translates into how many total boards covered.
A real strong flare potential ball with a 3 3/8 pin to pap drilling will cover a lot of boards.
4 1/2 will cover somewhat less. 5 3/4 will cover even less.

Early and late, I agree with other manufactures, you make your own call.

REgards,

Luckylefty

proform · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2004, 07:37:09 AM »

Brian asking for T-God to e-mail his/her name isn't playing fair. you just want to now where his/her shop is so you can open one next door. I now Brians credentials,agree 100%,Proshop operator myself,physics background myself and don't understand T-Gods logic..its incorrect,opposite of better brains than ours--Mo Pinnell.

T-GOD · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2004, 11:13:13 AM »

Proform, if you want to get into this debate, you're more than welcome. You can ask your God, Mo Pinel, the answer to this question, if you'd like. I'm sure he'll give you the correct answer.

The farther you place weight from the center of your track, the longer the ball will go longer. So, if you place weight on your positive axis point/PAP, the ball will go longer/give you the most length. If you place weight closer to your track, the ball will roll earlier/earliest.

So, if you put the pin on your PAP, along with the ending CG, the ball will go the longest. As you move the pin and ending CG away from your PAP, towards your track, the ball starts to roll earlier.

Now let's talk about what roll means. Roll means the ball rolling in a forward/end over end motion,i.e. Chris Barnes. When you turn the ball, the ball has side rotation, i.e. Pete Weber.

Different weights and/or core positions will either help maintain your side rotation or inhibit the side rotation, making the ball start to change direction and/or lose it's side rotation, going into more of a forward roll.

This is called "precession".

The more positive side weight you have in the ball, or the closer the pin and the ending CG is to your PAP, the longer the ball will delay it's precession going into a forward roll. Thus, the later the ball will roll.

The less side weight, or the farther the pin and ending CG is from your PAP, the sooner the ball will enter it's precession and/or change direction into a forward roll. Hence, the earlier the ball will roll.

Now if you don't believe me or understand this, there's nothing I can say to help you. So, why don't you go ask Mo..!! =:^D

proform · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:27:17 PM »

T-God
this is not a debate. simply check-out the Morich sit. go to Minotaur drilling sheet. control pin closer to track. sharp(most flair) half way between track & pap. forward roll(earlier hook) near pap.
if this is wrong please notify all ball reps on tour. robert smith should consider not placing pins 5-6 inches from pap and instead as you state if he needs length since i think we all do agree he has a little bit of hand should instead by your logic be placing his pins on his pap to as you say add length.
please show me one successful example of your layout logic.

T-GOD · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:53:38 PM »

pro, if a ball was rolled out immediately from the foul line, it won't hook at all and/or hook on the backend. So, when watching this ball roll down the lane, would you say "the ball is going long"..? =:^D

proform · « **Reply #26 on:** February 11, 2004, 01:38:29 PM »

T-God answer your own question...pin at pap ealier roll that means hooks early.. which means doesn't have the energy to hook late. now if you read your own question..then read some books on ball drilling..and you will have the answer.. also to your post saying positive side equalls length.. no finger weight=length
thumb weight=ealier roll
side weight=more backend
negative side wieght=less backend
your posts read the same as someone reviewing a ball and saying it had 220 grit and didn't hook on third shift burnt heads..think?
ask Brian for advice and keep a file of these posts and you will learn

T-GOD · « **Reply #27 on:** February 11, 2004, 02:01:32 PM »

pro, you just answered my question. Balls that go longer, hook harder on the backend. Balls that roll earlier, hook less on the backend.

quote:

side weight=more backend
negative side wieght=less backend

When you have side weight, there is more weight on the side of the ball, CLOSER TO YOUR PAP..!! MORE BACKEND MEANS THE BALL IS GOING LONGER..!!

When you have neg. side weight, there is more weight on the neg. side of the ball, which is FARTHER AWAY FROM YOUR PAP..!! LESS BACKEND MEANS THE BALL IS ROLLING SOONER..!! =:^D

proform · « **Reply #28 on:** February 11, 2004, 02:27:11 PM »

this is the last lesson..
Brian you are correct he is a lost cause.
if the ball hooks sooner= earlier roll = more hook not longer.
you have continued to say pin closer to pap=length.. no it=earlier hook which=less backend.
first pin to pap controls length not backend.
mass bias or cg to pap controls shape(that means amount of backend).
you are very confused, don't understand what you are saying, make little sense and should never drill a bowling ball for anyone.

proform · « **Reply #29 on:** February 11, 2004, 02:35:17 PM »

T-God go to visionary area of this site read JUSTINM"S question. are you drilling his equipment--my straight stuff rolls over my finger holes..

T-GOD · « **Reply #30 on:** February 11, 2004, 03:00:29 PM »

pro, it's too bad you and Brian are so brainwashed, you don't even understand what you say.

I pointed out what you said about more side weight=more backend, less side weight=less backend, but you don't understand what more side weight means..!!

As a matter of fact, you don't know what WEIGHT MEANS, or WHERE WEIGHT IS, period..!!

Balls that burn up early, have less backend. Balls that don't burn up early, go longer and have more backend..!! Now what don't you understand about that..?

Mo and all the big manufacturers have you guys so snowed over and confused, you don't know what makes sense anymore..!! That's how they sell balls..!! =:^D

Author Topic: layouts by your axis point, help please (Read 9270 times)

bowlerstyle

layouts by your axis point, help please

Constantine

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

T-GOD

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hskrntx

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T-GOD

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T-GOD

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LuckyLefty

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proform

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T-GOD

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proform

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T-GOD

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proform

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T-GOD

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proform

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proform

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T-GOD

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please