Post by: bowlerstyle on February 01, 2004, 11:59:46 PM
Post by: bowlerstyle on February 02, 2004, 03:02:28 PM
Post by: T-GOD on February 02, 2004, 03:58:14 PM
Different releases need different drillings, in order to get the same ball reaction. So, a 6 x 6 for a spinner will roll close to the same as a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 for a person who rolls the ball more end over end. =:^D
Post by: Mike E on February 02, 2004, 04:10:22 PM
Thanks,
Mike E
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Did you know that you can't see pigs in a windstorm?
Post by: bowlerstyle on February 02, 2004, 05:32:20 PM
Post by: bowlerstyle on February 02, 2004, 06:09:41 PM
Post by: T-GOD on February 03, 2004, 04:40:34 PM
If you drill a pin axis for a spinner, the ball will spin like a top and never hook..!! So, if you want the ball to roll/hook earlier for a spinner, you place the core/weights closer to their track..!!
Therefore, if a person who has a higher track/more roll, is using a ball drilled 3 1/2 x 3 1/2, on an oily condition, a spinner will need a layout farther from their PAP, i.e. 5 x 5 or 6 x 6 ect... in order to get the ball rolling sooner, giving a similar reation like the person who has the higher track does with a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 layout. =:^D
Post by: channel surfer on February 03, 2004, 04:57:10 PM
Ive been taught that the closer you move the pin towards the axis, the sooner the hook for a normal tracker.
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Edited on 2/3/2004 5:53 PM
Edited on 2/3/2004 5:54 PM
Post by: T-GOD on February 03, 2004, 09:40:01 PM
I'm going to try to explain this to you in laymans terms, so you and everyone else can understand it. If I try to explain it using physics terms, like angular momentum, rotational direction, precession, mass and velocity, it'll go over everyones head..!!
There's a difference between revving early and hooking early. Like I stated earlier, a top will spin early and fast, but when the ball is going down the lane, with the pin on it's axis/tilted up, spinning like a top, the ball won't hook early..!!
A ball that crashes onto the lane hooks/digs in earlier, vs a ball that comes into the lane flatter, like a plane coming in for a landing. With a pin axis drilling, the core is parallel to the lane. It skims across the lane. When the core is rotating more end over end, it's digging in on every rotation, so, the ball will grab earlier.
Here's a simple question for you. Maybe this will open your eyes. Bowler 1 has a high track, bowler 2 has a low track. Which bowlers ball rolls earlier/works better on oil..? The bowler with the low track, has the weight/pin closer to their axis/PAP vs. the high track, if they both used the same ball with a normal label drilling.
An end over end rolling ball/core will work better/roll earlier on oil than a ball/core spinning down the lane. This is as simple as I can put it for you..!! Now if you want me to get out my physics book and/or have a professor explain it to you, I'll do that too, but it'll cost you. =:^D
Post by: channel surfer on February 03, 2004, 09:51:09 PM
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Edited on 2/3/2004 10:47 PM
Post by: tburky on February 03, 2004, 10:22:11 PM
Go this website and look at the pin axis drilling and compare the length versus other layouts on the sheet.
http://www.lane1bowling.com/tech/drilling.html
Post by: channel surfer on February 03, 2004, 10:39:08 PM
Looks like this is a weird argument that will never stop. You must remember it differs with the RG of the ball. So I can make exceptions when I say early roll. Plus none of us are stating anything about mass bias, or center of gravity, and these do affect the reaction.
Ive been taught:
Pin placment controls what the ball will do to the first 40 feet/breakpoint, and the Mass Bias controls what will happen in the backend. I know some of you may agree, and some will think its stupid. But this is what ive been taught so im going off it.
--------------------
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Edited on 2/3/2004 11:52 PM
Post by: T-GOD on February 05, 2004, 12:32:46 PM
quote:They don't know any better.
Why would they lie about drilling their product. If it doesn't work then the ball looks bad and they don't sell any. Doesn't sound real smart to me.
quote:A higer RG core that is wobbling, WILL START earlier than a low RG core that doesn't wobble and/or wobbles less..!!
A core in a high Rg position (end over end as you put it) WILL NOT start earlier than a core in a low Rg position.
You keep saying that a low RG drilling (pin closer to your PAP) hooks/rolls earlier, and that this is what the manufacturers are teaching you, and everyone else. Well, if they hook/roll earlier, then they should work better on oil, correct..?
Then, why is it you don't see many balls for oil, drilled with the pin closer to your PAP, i.e. 1 1/2 - 2"..? But, you do see many oil drillings/balls drilled with the pin 4 3/4" to 5 1/4" from the PAP. Why is that..? Why don't you see many 2 x 2 stacked, 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 stacked drillings for oil..? These are supposedly better drillings, aren't' they..? Won't the ball roll/hook earlier with this type of lower RG drilling..?
Let's take a look back at what I said in the beginning. You have bowler 1 with a 5 1/2 PAP and bowler 2 with a 3 1/2" PAP(spinner). If each had a ball drilled 3 3/8 x 3 3/8", the bowler with the 5 1/2" PAP would have an earlier/more hook, correct..?
So, for the bowler with the 3 1/2" PAP, in order to get an earlier/more hook, are you going to tell me we need to move the pin closer to his PAP, closer to a pin axis drilling..? This is where you're dead wrong, and everyone else who believes this. If you move the bowler with the 3 1/2" PAP's (spinner's) core toward his PAP, the ball will spin/slide more, not hook earlier/roll more.
You have to put the pin farther from the spinners PAP, in order for the ball to start rolling/hooking sooner..!!
Now, here's what you may not realize, when you're drilling unbalanced, asymmetrical, strong mass bias core balls. When you initially put the core farther from your PAP, as the ball rolls down the lane, the core/pin moves closer to your PAP. With the core/pin closer towards your PAP, as I've stated many times, the ball goes longer before it hooks..!!
So, in reality, when your putting the pin farther from your PAP, it's ending up closer to your PAP as it's going down the lane, making the ball go longer. This explains why putting the pin farther from your PAP, in these strong mass bias core/asymmetrical, makes the ball go longer. But, in reality, the core/pin is not farther from your PAP, IT'S CLOSER TO YOUR PAP..!!
The same thing happens when you initially put the pin closer to your PAP. AS the ball rolls down the lane, it migrates farther away from the PAP, making the ball roll early..!!
As you can see, my physics are correct and the manufacturers are leaving out tiny details to their theories on layouts, thus, confusing the bowlers/drillers into thinking the Laws of Physics are different than what they really are..!!
So, when you're drilling symmetrical, stable core balls, you will learn the Laws of Physics properly, as well as true ball reactions and the reason why. =:^D
Edited on 2/5/2004 2:45 PM
Post by: Nodsleinad on February 05, 2004, 01:27:18 PM
For example: A player with 45 degree hand rotation. I use a pap to pin thru cg/mass bias angle of 45 degrees to accomplish the benchmark layout. This is usually there most reactive reaction. Closing that angle to 30-15-0 etc will allow the ball to arc / read earlier. Opening that angle will create later arc / reaction.
A player with 0 rotation I would use and 90 deg angle to get his benchmark reaction. Using 45 for that player would more than likely read and arc to early and he / her already has early reaction / roll with the 0 rotation.
A player with 90 rotation would / could use almost a 0 degree layout because they are creating skid with the release. PDW uses 25 degree as his Benchmark layout according to Steve Kloempken of Storm. If he uses the 45-60 it goes way to long and is over active most of the time. Those were Kloempkens words, not mine", I discussed this very issue with him. Of course this is not coming from a Physics guru like T-God but a bowler who has drilled over 300 balls.
Then of course u can use these angels with pin from PAP distance and different covers / balls to create the length that this reaction happens from the line.
I again use 3 3/8 for oil, 4 1/2 for medium and 5 5/8 for dry and i have used pin on axis and those lo rg drillings. Yes they go long but read and roll from the hand. The shell may get it down the lane but the read is closer. Pin on axis is not used for oil is because it reaches if preferred spin axis early and does not flare and rolls over the same areas of the ball. Bowlers want fresh ball surface for oil. The 3 3/8 will give the most flare because the ball has more imbalance and wobbles more , thus flares. A 5 5/8 ball will roll / flare but it stands up longer and reaches the pocket before it could flare that much. If the lane was 90 feet it would / could flare more as it encounters friction and then begins to lose energy and wobble / flare thusly down to it s preferred spin axis.
My thoughts, fire away i guess????
Nod
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 06, 2004, 12:11:09 PM
I'm not arguing (debating) either way, only writing what I read and what I thought it said. As I said at the begining, this is not "my cup of tea" and I know little to knothing about these things.
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Don't wear your self out cutting wood with an axe...Use a Buzzsaw
Post by: Constantine on February 06, 2004, 12:15:23 PM
quote:
Then, why is it you don't see many balls for oil, drilled with the pin closer to your PAP, i.e. 1 1/2 - 2"..? But, you do see many oil drillings/balls drilled with the pin 4 3/4" to 5 1/4" from the PAP. Why is that..?
You don't see many balls drilled with the pin near the PAP because of the risk of flaring over the fingerholes. To compensate for this issue, people use high RG drillings in order to avoid the fingers but still get the same amount of flare. The ball surface is then dulled in order to compensate for the lack of roll.
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Good luck & good bowling
Post by: T-GOD on February 06, 2004, 01:07:46 PM
So, 1 1/2 pin to PAP drillings, or closer measurements won't flare over the fingers, as long as the pin is positioned properly, as with any longer pin to PAP distances. =:^D
Post by: hskrntx on February 06, 2004, 01:27:54 PM
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Husker Fan living in:
San Angelo, Texas
Post by: T-GOD on February 06, 2004, 01:56:35 PM
quote:All I can say is that you can't understand what you read. Because, you've taken parts of different statements and put them together, so they don't make sense, without fully understanding what I wrote.
quote:
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With the core/pin closer towards your PAP, as I've stated many times, the ball goes longer before it hooks..!! So, in reality, when your putting the pin farther from your PAP, it's ending up closer to your PAP as it's going down the lane, making the ball go longer. This explains why putting the pin farther from your PAP, in these strong mass bias core/asymmetrical, makes the ball go longer. But, in reality, the core/pin is not farther from your PAP, IT'S CLOSER TO YOUR PAP..!!
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All I can say to this is...what drugs were you on when you wrote it? Make up your mind.. The pin closer to the PAP makes the ball go long or the pin farther from your PAP makes the ball go long.
quote:Doesn't a ball that rolls earlier, usually work better on oil..? You don't want the ball to go long, do you..? A spinners ball goes long, doesn't it..?
No...you are wrong because I never said I would move the pin closer to the PAP for a spinner to use in oil.
quote:Now if a spinners ball drilled 3 3/8 x 3 3/8 isn't starting up soon enough, without changing the surface, or going to a different ball, how would you make his ball start up sooner, by just changing the drilling. You said "low RG equates to earlier roll". So, I'm assuming, going by what the manufacturers are saying, you would move the pin closer to the PAP, which is a lower RG drilling..?
When you put the weight(I'm assuming you mean pin) near the axis point, you are putting the core in a low Rg position. And as everyone in the civilized, ball drilling, free world knows...low Rg equates to earlier roll.
quote:Well then, if you wouldn't move the pin closer to the PAP, wouldn't the opposite be the way to move it..?
No...you are wrong because I never said I would move the pin closer to the PAP for a spinner to use in oil.
quote:Not all balls do this. I know with a Buzzsaw, the track flares, but the pin distance doesn't change, as the ball travels down the lane.
quote:
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When you initially put the core farther from your PAP, as the ball rolls down the lane, the core/pin moves closer to your PAP.
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Uh, yea. It's called track flare.
quote:Brian, did you ever see a ball thrown where the pin started out wobbling, then 1/2 way down the lane, the pin spun perfectly on it's axis (the dot didn't wobble), then on the backends, the pin started wobbling again..? This is what I'm talking about.
WHAAAATTT!!!!!!!!!!!!! You mean you can drill a ball that flares BACKWARDS????? WOW, you are good. The balls core cannot flare away from the PAP.
Man, I'm teaching you a whole bunch of stuff here. And, it's all for free..!! =:^D
Post by: T-GOD on February 10, 2004, 02:58:46 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 11, 2004, 07:32:21 AM
Lane 1's website repeats his position.
All other ball manufacturers disagree with it.
I'll leave you two or three to fight this one out.
However, did we ever answer this guys question.
I'll try.
Pin position from pap determines total flare. 3 3/8 is maximum.
4 1/2 is 2/3. 2 1/4 from pap also capture 2/3 of total flare potential of a ball. 5 3/4 is 1/3 of total flare possible, 1 1/8 is 1/3 of total flare possible.
To me this translates into how many total boards covered.
A real strong flare potential ball with a 3 3/8 pin to pap drilling will cover a lot of boards.
4 1/2 will cover somewhat less. 5 3/4 will cover even less.
Early and late, I agree with other manufactures, you make your own call.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: proform on February 11, 2004, 07:37:09 AM
Post by: T-GOD on February 11, 2004, 11:13:13 AM
The farther you place weight from the center of your track, the longer the ball will go longer. So, if you place weight on your positive axis point/PAP, the ball will go longer/give you the most length. If you place weight closer to your track, the ball will roll earlier/earliest.
So, if you put the pin on your PAP, along with the ending CG, the ball will go the longest. As you move the pin and ending CG away from your PAP, towards your track, the ball starts to roll earlier.
Now let's talk about what roll means. Roll means the ball rolling in a forward/end over end motion,i.e. Chris Barnes. When you turn the ball, the ball has side rotation, i.e. Pete Weber.
Different weights and/or core positions will either help maintain your side rotation or inhibit the side rotation, making the ball start to change direction and/or lose it's side rotation, going into more of a forward roll.
This is called "precession".
The more positive side weight you have in the ball, or the closer the pin and the ending CG is to your PAP, the longer the ball will delay it's precession going into a forward roll. Thus, the later the ball will roll.
The less side weight, or the farther the pin and ending CG is from your PAP, the sooner the ball will enter it's precession and/or change direction into a forward roll. Hence, the earlier the ball will roll.
Now if you don't believe me or understand this, there's nothing I can say to help you. So, why don't you go ask Mo..!! =:^D
Post by: proform on February 11, 2004, 12:27:17 PM
this is not a debate. simply check-out the Morich sit. go to Minotaur drilling sheet. control pin closer to track. sharp(most flair) half way between track & pap. forward roll(earlier hook) near pap.
if this is wrong please notify all ball reps on tour. robert smith should consider not placing pins 5-6 inches from pap and instead as you state if he needs length since i think we all do agree he has a little bit of hand should instead by your logic be placing his pins on his pap to as you say add length.
please show me one successful example of your layout logic.
Post by: T-GOD on February 11, 2004, 12:53:38 PM
Post by: proform on February 11, 2004, 01:38:29 PM
thumb weight=ealier roll
side weight=more backend
negative side wieght=less backend
your posts read the same as someone reviewing a ball and saying it had 220 grit and didn't hook on third shift burnt heads..think?
ask Brian for advice and keep a file of these posts and you will learn
Post by: T-GOD on February 11, 2004, 02:01:32 PM
quote:When you have side weight, there is more weight on the side of the ball, CLOSER TO YOUR PAP..!! MORE BACKEND MEANS THE BALL IS GOING LONGER..!!
side weight=more backend
negative side wieght=less backend
When you have neg. side weight, there is more weight on the neg. side of the ball, which is FARTHER AWAY FROM YOUR PAP..!! LESS BACKEND MEANS THE BALL IS ROLLING SOONER..!! =:^D
Post by: proform on February 11, 2004, 02:27:11 PM
Brian you are correct he is a lost cause.
if the ball hooks sooner= earlier roll = more hook not longer.
you have continued to say pin closer to pap=length.. no it=earlier hook which=less backend.
first pin to pap controls length not backend.
mass bias or cg to pap controls shape(that means amount of backend).
you are very confused, don't understand what you are saying, make little sense and should never drill a bowling ball for anyone.
Post by: proform on February 11, 2004, 02:35:17 PM
Post by: T-GOD on February 11, 2004, 03:00:29 PM
I pointed out what you said about more side weight=more backend, less side weight=less backend, but you don't understand what more side weight means..!!
As a matter of fact, you don't know what WEIGHT MEANS, or WHERE WEIGHT IS, period..!!
Balls that burn up early, have less backend. Balls that don't burn up early, go longer and have more backend..!! Now what don't you understand about that..?
Mo and all the big manufacturers have you guys so snowed over and confused, you don't know what makes sense anymore..!! That's how they sell balls..!! =:^D
Post by: proform on February 11, 2004, 03:22:07 PM
you obviously only bowl on walls(bumper bowling) and fried. tell you what load up the positive, shine that ball and see you next year at the US OPEN. HOPE THAT BALL CAN FIND THAT BUMPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: T-GOD on February 11, 2004, 04:09:10 PM
quote:I'm right, you guys so snowed over and confused, you don't know what makes sense anymore..!! As a matter of fact, you aren't making sense anymore..!!
earlier you said it was they didn't know any better.. hook ealier means more hook in oil. later means it can only hook if it doesn't run out of lane and can find DRY BOARDS.
you obviously only bowl on walls(bumper bowling) and fried. tell you what load up the positive, shine that ball and see you next year at the US OPEN. HOPE THAT BALL CAN FIND THAT BUMPER!
quote:You can't/won't even answer my simple questions.
Balls that burn up early, have less backend. Balls that don't burn up early, go longer and have more backend..!! Now what don't you understand about that..?
quote:Now, I'm just following simple logic here. Why can't you follow simple logic..? Is it because you're brainwashed..?
side weight=more backend
negative side wieght=less backend
Balls that burn up early, have less backend...Right..?
Negative side weight = less backend...Right..?
Negative side weight means weight on the negative side of the ball...Right..?
Weight on the negative side of the ball, means that the weight is farther from your PAP...Right..?
Balls that don't burn early, go longer...Right..?
Balls that go longer have more backend...Right..?
Positive side weight = more backend...Right..?
Weight on the positive side of the ball, means that it's closer to your PAP...Right..?
Now tell me, have I said anything wrong/incorrect, in the 8 lines/statements directly above this one..? If not, what don't you understand..? Everything I've stated is logical, so what is there left..?
Don't you think logically, or do you just believe everything you hear..? =:^D
Post by: proform on February 11, 2004, 04:31:28 PM
NOW BALLS WITH PIN CLOSER TO PAP HOOK EARLIER EQUATES TO CAN BURN UP IF NOT ENOUGH OIL FOR SURFACE ....
PIN CLOSER TO TRACK EQUATES TO GOING LONGER WILL NOT HOOK UNLESS THERE IS DRY BOARDS DOWN LANE WILL NOT HOOK IN THE FRONT---MID OILS.....
YOU ARE THE NOT MAKING SENSE....BECOUSE INORDER FOR THR BALL TO HAVE HOOKED TOO EALRY IT HAD TO ROLL EARLIER AND ON LONGER OIL AND NOT BUMPER BOWLING THIS ENGINE WILL HOOK MORE..
YOUR PIN CLOSER TO TRACK WILL NEVER GET THE OPORTUNUTY TO HOOK UNLESS THE BOWLER CREATES IT AND/OR THE SURFACE CRESTES IT...
YOUR EQUATING THE PIN CLOSER TO TRACK AS HOOKING MORE IN OILY CONDITIONS, THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE...
STILL WAITING FOR ONE EXAMPLE OF ANY BOWLER ON BALL STAFF USING YOUR LOGIC OR WHY THE BALL COMPANIES WOULD SUPPLY THEIR STAFFS WITH WRONG TECHNIQUES!
IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING NOBODY ELSE KNOWS WHY AREN'T YOU ON STAFF, DESIGNING OR EMPLOYED BY ANY COMPANY.
NOW BRIAN IS ON BALL STAFF AND HAS CREDENTIALS, I HAVE BEEN ON STAFF.
WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS OTHER THAN MISINFORMATION, BACKWARDS LOGIC, DOUBLE TALK AND CLAIMING YOU KNOW WHAT NOBODY ELSE KNOWS..
Post by: proform on February 11, 2004, 04:34:37 PM
Post by: T-GOD on February 11, 2004, 04:52:11 PM
Post by: T-GOD on February 11, 2004, 05:01:05 PM
quote:No Brian, you are incorrect again. These are standard/generic statements that apply to all balls..!!
quote:
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Balls that burn up early, have less backend...Right..?
Negative side weight = less backend...Right..?
Negative side weight means weight on the negative side of the ball...Right..?
Weight on the negative side of the ball, means that the weight is farther from your PAP...Right..?
Balls that don't burn early, go longer...Right..?
Balls that go longer have more backend...Right..?
Positive side weight = more backend...Right..?
Weight on the positive side of the ball, means that it's closer to your PAP...Right..?
Now tell me, have I said anything wrong/incorrect, in the 8 lines/statements directly above this one..? If not, what don't you understand..? Everything I've stated is logical, so what is there left..?
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I'll tell you whats wrong with these statements. They refer to a three piece, pancake shaped core. You don't mention the pin position or mass bias at all. So if you are using balls that have a pin and MB, the statements above are incomplete and may or may not be true.
Post by: proform on February 12, 2004, 08:59:17 AM
the only thing confusing is your lack of knowledge and logic.
still waiting for atleast one example of anyone using your theory.
still waiting for some credentials.
are you a 180 bowler who thinks he has information that nobody else has.
tonight i will try your ideas.. by your theory if i place my pin on my pap and take the surface to 220 the ball will go long.
oh wait thats right you said positive wait makes the ball go long and finish harder and pin toward pap by your theory is major positive weight than why does pin at pap not generate more backend.
hope this makes sense, but to you it won't..
because its all a conspiracy by the ball manufactures to sell equipment have it not work and buy more..
you need to design a ball, apply your drilling theory direct the buyers to drill with your theory and have the only balls on the market that don't suck..
ball manufactures giving wrong directions to the purchaser,staff and tour staff and having the product not work is a great business plan-- well maybe not
please finally support your nonsense with credentials!
you won't because you can't!
and answer the simple example i gave---WHY WOULD ROBERT SMITH USE ALL 5+ PIN TO PAP'S IF ACCORDING TO YOU THAT MAKES THE BALL HOOK MORE?
simple because pin closer to track promotes length not hook mass bias and cg to pin shapes the backend.
positive and negative side weights are a minor determining factor in hook be it length or backend. only in a pancake weight block would it be more important.
I already now your response-
see i said pos. weight adds length and backend blah blah blah;
give examples or credentials or stop with the misinformation !
Post by: T-GOD on February 12, 2004, 03:18:06 PM
quote:Simple, because most of the time, we're bowling on a wall, with carrydown. A wall means a wall of dry boards to the right. So, what happens is the ball will go somewhat long, when it hits the dry, then it hooks hard.
oh wait thats right you said positive wait makes the ball go long and finish harder and pin toward pap by your theory is major positive weight than why does pin at pap not generate more backend.
The dry outside is so short, all the way to the foul line, that all you see is the ball hooking. That's why you think a pin axis hooks early, but in reality, the whole lane is hooking early.
When the oil carries down, because pin axis goes long and/or more positive side weight goes longer, it never hooks. This is why you don't see the reaction on the backend with a pin axis drilling.
Now, if you had a blended lane condition, that was fairly dry, you will see that the pin axis drilling goes longer, and, also hooks harder/more on the backend.
If you were using a leverage weight drilling on this condition, you will notice that it hooks earlier, and it will roll out. The pin axis drilling, along with the ending CG on the axis (more positive side along with very little top) will allow you to swing the ball wider, covering more boards, and never rolling out.
Like I said, the reason you don't see pin axis drillings hook on the backend, is because the oil is too long and/or too much carrydown, so the ball goes too long before it hooks.
Does this make any sense to you..? =:^D
Post by: channel surfer on February 12, 2004, 03:42:51 PM
--------------------
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Post by: proform on February 13, 2004, 08:04:08 AM
YOUR BOWLING KNOWLEDGE AND THEORY ONLY WORKS ON ONE CONDITION AND NOT BASED ON THE PHYSICS YOU CLAIMED EARLIER. YOU KEEP TRYING TO CHANGE THE DEBATE AND BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO FACTS, EXAMPLES OR CREDENTIALS THE TRUTH COMES OUT.
YOU ARE A LEAGUE(HOUSE) BOWLER WHO THINKS BOWLING IS AS I SAID EARLIER THE BUMPER BOWLING YOU BOWL ON. AS I SAID EARLIER YOUR THEORY ONLY WORKS ON CONDITIONS WITH THE GREAT BUMPER. ON A TRUE CONDITION THE FLAT CONDITION YOU MENTIONED AS IN THE US OPEN FOR YOU AND YOUR LEAGUE BUDDIES BY THE END OF PRACTICE WITHOUT SUPER SURFACE YOU WILL HAVE A SPARE BALL.
Post by: proform on February 13, 2004, 08:32:16 AM
this started with you stating-
pin closer to track hooks more
pin closer to pap goes longer
and that this is physics and ball maufacturers are wrong because their sheets state the opposite. this is NOT a condition specific debate, you staed this as physics and a constant.
as Brian, all ball manufacturers, knowledgeable technicians and myself state-
pin closer to track adds length
pin closer to pap earlier roll
pin approximately 3 3/8 from pap most dynamic
now that you still can't give proof that the above people/experts are wrong you turn this to condition specific. if this was a condition specific debate when i came in than show when this was condition specific.
the FACT that pin closer to pap doesn't finish on the walled condition DOES NOT change the FACT that pap closer to pin promotes earlier roll, but instead proves it. the FACT that pin closer to track most likely will finish harder when hitting that dry backend, DOES NOT changed the FACT that pap closer to track promotes length, but again proves it.
Post by: T-GOD on February 13, 2004, 09:43:50 AM
But, I don't care what your credentials are, because they don't matter to me. I just go by what you say, that's it. I don't care if you're a 160 average bowler, if you say something that makes sense, then I'll agree with you.
You see, I use my brain to figure things out. I don't just go by what someone says, I'll experiment and prove it, right or wrong. Everything I've tried to teach you guys about weights has all been experimented with, tried and proven, by myself. My statements also coincide with the laws of physics. It's not my fault that you guys don't know/understand physics.
Like I explained earlier, a ball rolled perfectly forward, in a 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock motion, no side rotation, with the core and ending CG 6 3/4" from the axis, will just roll end over end all the way down the lane. The ball won't hook, can't hook and doesn't hook, it just goes straight, all the way down the lane.
So, are you going to say the ball is going/sliding long..? No, it's rolling early and it's rolled out, right from the get go..!!
Now, you take the same ball rotation, but now you have the core on it's axis, and the ending CG/weight on your axis/maximum side weight. You will see the ball hook some, because the weight is on the side of the ball.
Because you see the ball hook, and the other one with the core going end over end not hooking, you think the ball with the core/weight on it's axis is hooking earlier.
Visually, yes it's hooking earlier, but technically it's not..!! It's going longer and hooking, while the other one is rolling earlier and not hooking at all.
You see, what you see is not always the way things are..!! =:^D
Post by: anotherwindup on February 13, 2004, 10:25:25 AM
I have laid out many balls and thrown many balls with different cores, layouts, covers, etc.
On ANY condition a ball with the pin on the axis will REV earlier, causing earlier ROLL, and a more controlled backend. This may APPEAR to go longer but in acutality it is burning more energy, and not hooking, therefore appearing to go longer.
A ball with a longer pin to PAP length will put the core in a more upright position, causing the core to LOPE, and not ROLL. Therefore it stores energy, and when the track flares and hits dry it will hook more radically.
If your theory held water- then with my 20 revs and bowling on a dry condition I need to throw pin axis balls? the ball would store 0 energy and the only hook produced would be from the cover and the rotation.
How come I keep drilling balls with longer and longer pin to PAP distances, and the ball keeps going LONGER AND LONGER before transitioning into hook.
I gotta call my ball driller-----oh, wait, he is still out on tour.....WHAT DOES HE KNOW??????
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: proform on February 13, 2004, 10:28:57 AM
I have been on this site for over 2 years, know that Brian Omara has been on for as long or longer, have seen him list credentials, have seen him ask yours with no response and listed some of mine when asking yours. it is you who is not seeing or understanding ball reaction, surface preparation, lane preparation and how each effects and/or is effected by the other.
once again 21yrs drilling
proshop owner/operator..manager..technician..coaching..lane maintenance..mechanic..PBA member..etc.
your example is not relevant to the debate of pin closer to pap vs pin closer to pap..because i could just say pin placement,cg placement and mb placement are erelevent and don't effect ball motion at all because i bowl on 60 ft 70 units flat synthetic surface 100 units of oil flat.. we all would agree that no matter what placements we had this will never hook.. well maybe by your theories there is debate because my eyes say no hook all 60 feet but you see it as hooking too early..
we all can come up with extremes that are not relative to the debate and cloud the bottom line T-GOD is the only person who sees what Mo Pinel, Del Warren, other ball designer,experts, Brian and myself can't see or choose to mislead the customer because if the product doesn't work based on misinformation we will sell more product.
The great conspiracy, but T-GOD has caught on so Columbia,Storm,Ebonite,Morich,Lane1,Hammer,Brunswick,Visionary etc. the game is up because T-GOD the unknown has it all figured out..
My shop will no longer be carrying your products until you learn at T-GOD hands or reprint all products and refund all moneys to myself and my customers.