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Author Topic: I would like to hear the thoughts of drill Guru's on Flare Ring Spacing and its meaning?  (Read 3660 times)

Nodsleinad

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I imagine it is this way but on a BWPearl the individual flare ring space width is about ½” - ¾” or so and they cover about 4-5 inches on the ball in width.  I also tossed a Game Breaker near the same pin placement and those Flare rings were separated by 1/8”-1/4” at most.  They cover about 3-4 inches or so.

The BWP is drilled 70 Degree Drill Angle x 4” pin and 45 Degree off the VAL, No Hole.
The Game Breaker is drilled 60-70 Degree Drill Angle x 4.5” pin and 45 Degree off the VAL, No Hole.

Is it typical for a Symmetrical ball to have denser flare rings (Closer to each other)?  And I imagine that the closer rings means that ball will read the oil less aggressively or the Hook Zone smoother?  

Also is there a way to get the Flare Rings to be closer to each other on an Asymmetrical Ball?

Nod
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dizzyfugu

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What you see as flare ring is how much the core moves towards its stable position while rotating. It depends on several factors. Technically, both the differential and the pin position play a major part in how much a ball flares. The differential shows you how much flare potential the core has - the bigger, the wider the flare CAN be. The maximum flare would become visible in a leverage position, pin 3 3/8" from PAP.

This said, the pin placement relative to the PAP defines how much of the potential is actually tapped. The same drilling on different cores can have different flare results, depending on the core's differential (and also the number of revs and speed a bowler puts into the ball).
Basically, the more flare rings you see and the bigger tehy are apart, the more the ball will move - but axis rotation and tilt also play a role here, so it is just a basic statement. I have a Pure Hammer, pin at 5+" from PAP, and it just shows 2" or flare rings very close to each other, but the ball moves a lot, more than one would expect though the low flare setup!

To get flare rings closer to each other fater the ball is drilled, you might use a flare reducing balance hole, placed above the PAP.
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Dyno-Joe

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I think what you are seeing is caused by the pin strength you used. I've always found asymmetrically cored balls tend to flare more because the pin placement and flare potential is different than that in symmetrical cored. Usually the highest flaring pin position for asymmetrical is right around 2 3/4 to 6 inches. Where as for symmetrical you have that sweet spot for highest flare potential right around 3 3/8 in. Now since you used a 4 in pin on your BWP and the 4 1/2 in on your Gamebreaker, you are using a stronger pin in your BWP than what is in the Gamebreaker. Hope that helps.

shelley

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Keep in mind that asyms flare differently that symmetrics.  Just as the pin will migrate to a stable axis, so will the MB, and that will contribute to the ball's flare separation.

SH

Nodsleinad

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So basically the more Aggressive Differential will cause wider flare rings and more flare rings which will result in more recovery in backend and earlier recovery than that of denser/closer flare rings.

???


Thanks
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JohnP

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quote:
So basically the more Aggressive Differential will cause wider flare rings and more flare rings which will result in more recovery in backend and earlier recovery than that of denser/closer flare rings.


Wider flare rings? - Yes.
More flare rings? - No.  The number of flare rings is dependent on your ball speed and rev rate (and thus the number of time the ball rotates between release and exiting the oil), not on the RG Differential.  --  JohnP

Pinbuster

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I'm of the opinion that once you have separation of the flare rings, that is where you can see each one distinctly; additional separation is of no value.

Flare is primarily to introduce oil free surface of the ball to the lane.


tenpinspro

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Hey Nod, (How ya doing?)

If you're trying to understand complete ball motion, I'll have to add to this mix. We also need to consider the width of each physical flare ring present from ball to ball as that is an indication of a ball's "footprint".  ABC/USBC has been watching this and will continue to monitor the amount of friction we can create which highly influences our total reaction/movement.

Let's do this, 50 hardness Shore-D and a 90 hardness Manhattan Rubber....no high tech cores.  Remember how much the Shore-D would move in comparison?  I'd bet if ever measured these days, that footprint would be huge.

1)Differential dictates possible amount of flare (varies upon bowler style).
2)Flare ring separation indicates how fast the core is attempting to reach its PSA.  
3)Mass bias positionings (in asym balls) either assist or delay the core in trying to reach its PSA.

Core movement does not always reflect "ball" movement.  This is still dependent upon how much stored energy is present once the ball encounters friction so it can be released.
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Nodsleinad

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Hi Rick... Do in well and thanks.

So the closer the flare seperation does that mean that the ball is reaching PSA faster or slower?

quote:
Hey Nod, (How ya doing?)

If you're trying to understand complete ball motion, I'll have to add to this mix. We also need to consider the width of each physical flare ring present from ball to ball as that is an indication of a ball's "footprint".  ABC/USBC has been watching this and will continue to monitor the amount of friction we can create which highly influences our total reaction/movement.

Let's do this, 50 hardness Shore-D and a 90 hardness Manhattan Rubber....no high tech cores.  Remember how much the Shore-D would move in comparison?  I'd bet if ever measured these days, that footprint would be huge.

1)Differential dictates possible amount of flare (varies upon bowler style).
2)Flare ring separation indicates how fast the core is attempting to reach its PSA.  
3)Mass bias positionings (in asym balls) either assist or delay the core in trying to reach its PSA.

Core movement does not always reflect "ball" movement.  This is still dependent upon how much stored energy is present once the ball encounters friction so it can be released.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop  
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tenpinspro

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quote:
Hi Rick... Do in well and thanks.

So the closer the flare seperation does that mean that the ball is reaching PSA faster or slower?


"Core" is moving slower but dependent upon lane conditions and ball, this can still offer a strong movement on the backend as dizzy sees with his ball. This is more so an indication of how much stored energy he was able to retain and then be released.

Remember when we bowled in Cincy?  I used my Xception (green ball) which is no more then a med to med lite ball and circled the lane with it.  If I had chosen to use a stronger/dull ball (which may have even flared more), I could not get that type of reaction because of the amount of stored energy that would be retained for the backends.
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Nodsleinad

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OK  I still could not get the answer out of what you said.  I am stupid today I guess.  Is a ball with closer together flare rings spinning to is PSA faster or slower?

Nod

quote:
quote:
Hi Rick... Do in well and thanks.

So the closer the flare seperation does that mean that the ball is reaching PSA faster or slower?


"Core" is moving slower but dependent upon lane conditions and ball, this can still offer a strong movement on the backend as dizzy sees with his ball. This is more so an indication of how much stored energy he was able to retain and then be released.

Remember when we bowled in Cincy?  I used my Xception (green ball) which is no more then a med to med lite ball and circled the lane with it.  If I had chosen to use a stronger/dull ball (which may have even flared more), I could not get that type of reaction because of the amount of stored energy that would be retained for the backends.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop  
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Edited on 1/24/2008 12:52 PM
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tenpinspro

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quote:
OK I still could not get teh answer out of what you said. I am stupid today I guess. Is a ball with closer together flare rings spinning to is PSA faster or slower?

Nod


haha..more coffee Nod..more coffee.

I say "core" because I want to separate the difference for you.  As a whole, then yes the "ball" is moving slower towards PSA.  All I was trying to say was that core motion and "ball" reaction/movement are two different things, thanks.
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JohnP

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quote:
I'm of the opinion that once you have separation of the flare rings, that is where you can see each one distinctly; additional separation is of no value.


Pinbuster - What about the area of the track close to the two bowties?  The further the flare rings are separated the smaller the area where the ball is rolling over previous rings.  I really don't know if that would be significant or not, maybe 5 - 10% of the total track area.  --  JohnP