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Author Topic: lil layout help for a weird pap  (Read 5482 times)

icefiction

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lil layout help for a weird pap
« on: December 05, 2008, 06:40:49 AM »
well here it is, im sure its correct unfortuneatly; 2 7/8 over by 1 3/4 up

I need some help because i would like to use a pin position under my ring finger but unfortuneatly i roll right over the thumb when i do so. Does anyone have any ideas bout how to get something to roll early and alot, it seems when i throw at my normal 18mph speed, all layouts that i have tried, ex 4 or 4.5 seem to not do much untill i really slow down. I was just wonderin if anyone knew of any ideas that might help me
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bluerrpilot

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2008, 04:46:51 PM »
3 3/8 from pap and Alot of surface
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JustRico

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2008, 04:56:52 PM »
When you have a coordinate that is that extreme, i.e. 1 3/4" up, you need to make sure you have the pin at 2" above the midline. This helps control the flare in regards to the gripping holes.

I am somewhat confused though. If you track that low, how do you catch the thumb hole?
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BowlingWolf

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2008, 05:02:07 PM »
quote:
Dont take this the wrong way but I would consider working on your release. I believe it is the only way to truly get the reaction that you want.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGs6ULm2ZA8

Edited on 12/5/2008 5:03 PM


And for an optimal release to occur, proper mechanics—i.e. stance, eyes riveted on target, push-away timing coinciding with stepping, free arm-swing, walking cadence, pivot step, slide, hand acceleration prior to release point at bottom of swing on a level plane with the lane, staying down, following through and not falling off until the ball is past intended target—must all be observed.  

Having a knowledgeable set of eyes from a competent coach can greatly improve one's game.  

This is easier to accomplish than you might think.

Find yourself a fine USBC coach that is patient, willing to observe what you are doing, and able to suggest helpful tips, and sooner rather than later (don't try to fix your game on your own), you will be seeing drastic improvement, which will make your whole bowling experience that much more enjoyable.

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Regards,
BowlingWolf
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mrbowlingnut

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2008, 05:07:26 PM »
There is a well known Vegas Lefty that has almost those coordinates, he hooks the entire left side if needed. Has average over 220 for over 20 straight years and in my opinion does not need to change anything.

You just need the right driller, there a few shops here in Vegas that could hit this nuts on one of them is K&K Bowling Services who drilled for him over the years.
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icefiction

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2008, 06:22:09 PM »
Thankyou for all the help guys, and not to brag or anything like that, but I have worked with coaches like chuck gardner and brent sims and mo pinel, they all agree to just work around it because i make it work very well, and it is almost impossible to notice untill to one sees my ball track.

Rico, even with my pap my track is still less than an inch off my thumb, it is however very titled away from my fingers, but thankyou very much for the suggestion of 2 inchesabove my midline, should I do that on the majority of my balls, i have found that pin down stuff does give me the best reads, and they are also sometimes angular enough to really pop off the spot.
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JustRico

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2008, 06:36:14 PM »
Depending on your span, if the pin ends up near or just under your ring finger at 2", put the pin in your ring finger and drill it out.
I understand that your track is tilted, but I am still surprised that it catches your thumb. I think your track might be higher than you are showing.

Also if you have worked with Chuck, who I previously worked with, ask him for advice in regards to layouts.

Also I can name two guys that have been fairly successful with a PAP similar to yours, Michael Fagan & Tom Baker.
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icefiction

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 06:50:07 PM »
thank you very much rico, and me and chuck have tlked many a time, i as just gettin some more ideas from others. thank you all
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JohnP

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2008, 09:35:36 AM »
One piece of info you haven't given us - what is your axis tilt?  And if you like low pin layouts why don't you try one with the pin in the positive thumb quadrant, similar to the Rico layout (I'm surprised JustRico hasn't suggested this).  The way your track angles (I don't like to use the word tilts for track direction, it confuses people with axis tilt) away from the finger holes you don't have any worry about flaring into them.  In fact your later flare rings will look like a fairly high 3/4 track.  You could put the pin at 3 3/8 to 4" from your PAP with the cg stacked under it.  If you use a pin in ball you can probably get away without a balance hole.  I'd be interested in what Just Rico has to say about these thoughts.  --  JohnP
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icefiction

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2008, 09:45:07 AM »
sorry bout that lack of info, my tilt is right around 8 degress give or take a degree, by poitive thumb quadrant you mean below the midline and on the pap side of the ball, correct? just wana make sure i know what to try
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JohnP

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2008, 09:59:14 AM »
8 degrees?!?  You're not a spinner, you've just got a strange track.  Yes, I'm talking about below the midline and on the positive side of the centerline.  By the way, with the layout I've described if you did flare into the finger holes a balance hole located as in the Rico layout should pull the bowtie up enough to get to get the flare rings off the holes.  And this layout should start the ball up early but I doubt if it will get the track off the thumb hole.  --  JohnP
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JustRico

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2008, 10:15:07 AM »
My thoughts are that I am somewhat confused by your post, JohnP.

First of all, the flare rings migrate towards the fingers and away from the thumb, with normal layouts, i.e. pin placements that are on the positive side of the PAP (between the PAP and track) and above the midline.
What you are describing, in regards to the flare rings catching the thumb, would mean the track would have to invert (flare or migrate backwards) or the bow tie would have to be so high, that it is catching the lower portion of the track below the lower bow tie.

Are you sure, from oil rings, that the flare is catching your thumb and possibly not your middle finger?

Also you have never said what your rev rate is.

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JustRico

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2008, 10:15:45 AM »
And yes if you have not tried a pin in the palm (Rico) layout, I would suggest it.
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icefiction

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2008, 10:21:46 AM »
ok sorry for leaving out more info, here is everything i can think off that i have not mentioned, my rev rate is high, and my bowtie is usually right to the bottom right of my thumb, im left handed. the only time i clip the thumb i with pin positions under my ring finger. my track is close to my thumb but very far away from the fingers, and yes i dont really spin the ball persay i just have a weird track for some reason, i thank you all for your help and im sorry if i am leaving out info you need, just let me know if there is anything else you need to know.
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JohnP

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Re: lil layout help for a weird pap
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2008, 08:48:44 PM »
quote:
My thoughts are that I am somewhat confused by your post, JohnP.


I was assuming he hits the thumb hole right off his hand and then flares off it.  If this is true, I don't think any layout will cure it.  icefiction -- Is this the case?  And are you by any chance a no thumber?  One more - your track doesn't start to the left of your thumb hole (full roller) and then flare into it, does it?  If so, you need a full roller layout.  --  JohnP
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