Author Topic: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers (Read 4041 times)

Bill Dutton · « **on:** September 25, 2005, 03:05:29 AM »

Have heard a lot of talk about the relationship of pitches between the fingers, forward and reverse,and the thumb forward and reverse, to be linear. Any comments of what is normal and why?

Thanks

Bill

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #1 on:** September 25, 2005, 11:30:04 AM »

The theory started with Bill Taylor explaining what he called the 63 degree angle.

He found along with a lot of others that regardless of span length or fingertip and conventional.

Most standard thumbs(say 105 degrees of flexibility) did fine with a 63 degree angle in relation to finger thumb line.
Picture a line that is drawn from front lip of finger holes to front lip of thumb hole. The ball is actually drawn thru a cut thru section of ball(imagine).

If span is 4 1/4 thumb forward reverse pitch is 0.

If span is 4 3/8 thumb reverse is 1/16.
If span is 4 1/8 then thumb forward is 1/16.

This table is then carried so on.
ie a 1/8 lengthening in span leads to a 1/16 increase in reverse.
a 1/8 shortening in span leads to 1/16 increase in forward.

There are a lot of assumpitions in this method.
1. Average flexibility
2. average moisture
3. Full fingertip or conventional
4. Average thumb length 2 1/4.
5 Finger pitches pilot hole drilled at 0.

All things are factored in to adjust in the real world.

Droppers go 1/8 forward, hangers 1/8 reverse FROM table.
Short thumbs 1/8 forward, long thumbs 1/8 revese from table.
Stiff thumbs 1/8 reverse, Flexible thumbs 1/8 forward(again from tables).
Urethane inserts often can move forward 1/8 forward.
Vinyl...remain the same.
Semifingertip users often find they must be forward of the tables.
Those that add a lot of revese in fingers tend to move forward with the thumb.

Again....the trend today is to use a relaxed fingertip and urethane slug so many bowlers are slightly forward of the 63 degree table.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS remember the theory of proper ball release is thumb out....Lag....then finger release leads to the great looking high rev shot we all love to see.
The greater the lag in time between thumb ....finger release the greater the revs! Yummm!
PPS To picture the cutaway nature of 63 degree angle. Imagine a guy with a 6 inch span. Note how if one draws a line thru the ball from front of fingers to front of thumb hole how much that imaginary STRAIGHT line will cut thru the ball. Note the proper reverse for this long handed fellow with a full fingertip is 6 - 4 1/4(base or 0 pitch span) = 1 3/4 X .5 = 7/8 reverse.

Bill Dutton · « **Reply #2 on:** September 25, 2005, 12:25:01 PM »

Thanks for the reply. I will tell you that Mo pinel says that if you want to get into this topic to be linear with say 3/4 reverse in thumb you would want 1/2 reverse in fingers. I have a span of 4 3/4 and 4 15/16. I have a 90 degree stiff thumb and not much flex if any in the fingers. I have 9/16 reverse in thumb and 3/4 reverse in fingers. I operate a pro shop and Dave Dekin headed me in this direction. I am also double jointed in thumb knuckle. Just trying to do what Ric was saying about putting the ball into the lane. This has helped, but still needs improvement. what do you think?

Thanks again,

BILL

JohnP · « **Reply #3 on:** September 26, 2005, 10:43:41 AM »

quote:
The other flaw is that 0 pitch is not true 0 pitch, it is an angle. It will change when the bowling ball is rotated off of drilled area. This is not something that can be explained easily on a forum page.

BrunsRicH -- I would like to understand what you're saying here better. As I understand pitches, 0 pitch means that the center of the hole is angled directly toward the center of the ball. So that hole would still measure 0 in all directions. Now, any hole with pitch other than 0 would indeed measure differently if the ball (or the pitch gauge) is rotated. Can you refer me to other information on this subject? -- JohnP

JohnP · « **Reply #4 on:** September 26, 2005, 03:09:37 PM »

I think I've got it. Thanks, Ric -- JohnP

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #5 on:** September 26, 2005, 11:45:15 PM »

BrunsRich,

I'll let you answer that question seperately regarding that interpertation, but your thought provoking comments have me thinking.

Recently I have been involved in a little funny experiment for myself.

My best bowling came with an extremely stretched span of 4 15/16. Stretched very hard my last joint got a tad over the lip of my finger inserts. During this time I had a definitive feeling of thumb out..... a long period of time and then a distintive feeling of lift from my fingers without doing any lifting, just firm. As I used to tell people. Boom......LAG.....Boom!

My ball had a distinctive and heavy roll! Similar to guys that I occasionally see with true spans in the 5 1/2 inch range. Heavy roll...big time seperation between thumb finger.

Thumb damage with this setup was the inevitable result and I had it!

I loved the roll.

Since that time I have been trying to get to a comfortable place where I could get that roll and not damage my thumb. Most of the adjustments I have made have placed my span shorter where the last joint is past the middle of the hole with moderate stretch. Say 4 11/16. This has been....well not so good.
Dropping...lack of seperation. Discomfort relative to stretched.

At the same time I have observed on the protour the distinctive early thumb long span of such guys as Mika and Walter Ray with their big hands heavy roll styles. And also the shorter span high rev style of say Chris Barnes(who looks like sometimes he is fighting the ball from getting down too quickly in to the lane. This style has definitively less seperation in thumb finger release time than the Walter Ray style. And as you stated their is almost a tie in the times for release.

So then 3 weeks ago or so I attend a trade show and know it Mo is there.
Ball designer...layout and grip king. He takes and shortens me another notch and puts me at 4 1/2. Also with a powerlift we end up with 1/4 forward on my ring for the pilot hole. Whether it is the forward...or it is the shortness of grip. Last finger joint is touching back of insert(I call this a semi fingertip). I am revvin the ball for me like Robert Smith(say 360 rpms from 280). No dropping, tons of revs and almost heavy roll like before. Surprisingly I have not had to go to more forward with the thumb! Most surprising is the feeling of very little seperation between thumb and finger release.

Now while 4 9/16 feels cramped, this 4 and 1/2(or maybe 4 15/32) does not.
Whether it is the forward in the ring finger that is keeping the ball on my hand much longer and preventing dropping or just that the middle ground of span lengths for me is no good. This semi fingertip is exciting me!
For whatever reason the ball all of a sudden feels like I am developing a long flat spot in my swing with this grip versus what has always been titled a fairly steep downswing. Since I switched from my super stretched span.

As I just stumbled upon this recently I have not completed the testing to see if forward in the ring (I do Not have more flexibility in this finger versus my middle) is what is causing the difference and if that would make the more traditional relaxed fingertip spans workable or if the new answer for me is this distinctively semifingertip grip.

I found your comments interesting in light of this development and wonder if you could add anything regarding what I am finding?

REgards,

Luckylefty

JohnP · « **Reply #6 on:** October 01, 2005, 11:04:24 AM »

quote:
On a more serious note, what's your slant on the relationship between reverse pitch on the thumb and lateral towards the palm.

I'd like to kick in my $.02 worth on this topic. There is very little relationship. Correct lateral pitch is dependent primarily on the hinge angle of the thumb. Correct forward/reverse pitch is dependent on the span, thumb flexibility, thumb length, and thumb moistness in addition to hinge angle. -- JohnP

JohnP · « **Reply #7 on:** October 01, 2005, 08:28:37 PM »

quote:
AH ha....so nothing is written in stone then. Guys' gotta do what he's gotta do. Which is, whatever works is good.

That's my philosophy. I'm a good example. Both spans are 4 11/16, which "by the book" calls for 1/4 reverse. But if I use any less than 1/2 reverse, my thumb hangs. Always has. My thumb is quite stiff. Drillers used to put me in 1/4 reverse, 1/4 right (my thumb hinges 1/4 left) and I had to lick my thumb every time to get out clean. I wasn't smart enough back then to use ChapStick. That's the beauty of an adjustable fitting ball. If a customer has a problem getting out of the thumb hole, play with the pitches in the fitting ball until he's happy. I also use a lot of reverse in my finger holes because of inflexible joints.

Deadbait -- Why don't you give us a little more information about yourself in your profile? I like a good discussion (argument) and am always interested in learning more about fitting/drilling. I've only been doing it about 2 1/2 years, but have learned a lot through this and other forums as well as by experience. -- JohnP

nd300 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 01, 2005, 08:56:59 PM »

I had talked with my driller not too long ago on this topic,but from the standpoint of me ahving ring finger pain. I'm still not sure if it was from too much bowling,a little age creeping up on me,or span change was needed.
Due to ball damage from replugging of my middle finger, I recently got another ball and we agreed to change the span based on remeasuring everything. We used the AMF ball fitter just as if I had never been to his shop before. Lo and behold,it was almost 1/4"too long. We plugged and moved the thumb accordingly.
My first set with this new ball and span change was a pleasant 607. Pleasant- ness came from the easy release and almost effortless roll I achieved with this ball. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a cranker and this change didn't produce another 100 rpm's. But the release was really easy adn allowed me to watch and learn what this ball was telling me about the way it reacted and the moves I needed to make.
So my .02 is that a small span change helped me with the help of a very good driller---The Author from this site.
--------------------
Chris
Lane#1--nothing else hits like 'em.

Author Topic: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers (Read 4041 times)

Bill Dutton

linear pitches/between thumb and fingers

LuckyLefty

Re: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers

Bill Dutton

Re: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers

JohnP

Re: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers

JohnP

Re: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers

LuckyLefty

Re: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers

JohnP

Re: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers

JohnP

Re: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers

nd300

Re: linear pitches/between thumb and fingers