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Author Topic: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*  (Read 12298 times)

BrunsNick

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Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« on: October 25, 2006, 07:49:29 PM »
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
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Edited on 10/26/2006 3:38 PM
Nick Smith
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Raven829

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2006, 05:58:08 AM »
Nick, that was a great video.  I do have a question on the layout though.  I'll try to word this right so it is comprehendable.  I noticed that you ended up with the pin below the bridge.  Say you wanted the pin a certain height above the midline, such as 3.5".  How would you go about laying that part out?  The best way I can figure is to take a compass, measure it out to 3.5", put the point on the pin and then draw a circle around the pin.  Then draw a line from your PAP that is tangent to the circle you drew along the pin.  That line would then be your midline.  Measure back your horizontal PAP number and you have your center of grip. Am I way off on this?  I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say here.  I think this would work with PAP's that have no up or down number, such as 5" straight over.  I'm not sure how to do it with a vertical number in the PAP.  

Don
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Raven829

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2006, 06:15:12 AM »
After playing with my quarter scale some more and thinking, I think I figured out the vertical measurement problem.  Let's say said PAP is 5" over and 1" up.  Take the compass and measure out 1".  Put the point on the PAP mark and draw a circle.    Now instead of drawing a tangent line from the PAP to the arc around the pin, you would draw a line that is tangent to both the arc around the pin and the arc around the PAP.  Measure back 5" from the point where the line meets the PAP arc and mark it.  That becomes your center of grip.  Then if you were to measure from the pin down perpendicular to your midline you would get 3.5".  Measuring your PAP from this spot should also put you right on.  I think.  I'm pretty sure I confused myself.

Don
--------------------
"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage.  Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me. The problem we have to address more than anything is the home run problem."
~Dusty Baker being a total fool
1. Don't be a dick
2. Try not to hurt others

directdrill

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2006, 06:28:28 AM »
BrunsNick,

That was a great video.  I do have one question.  Why was the line drawn at an angle of 50 degrees?
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Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2006, 11:19:44 AM »
Dear Nick,

I don't mean to hate, but I feel that I need to point out a couple of observations with regards to this ball layout video.  There is a conceptual/real problem in the method that you layout a bowling ball, and the people on this forum need to be aware of the differences in the outcome.  Because I'm a geometry geek, and love talking about these things, this will get long. I apologize for that up front.

When talking about positive axis point in relation to the gripping holes on the ball, there is a universal method that pro shop operators use to locate that positive axis point.  We first draw a centerline on the ball that splits the bridge and thumb hole in half.  We then locate the grip center by measuring the span and dividing it in half (this process is up for a totally different discussion at another time).  Measuring from either the fingers or thumb, we mark the grip center at one half of that span measurmement along the centerline.  We then use the Pro Sect to draw a perpendicular line to the centerline at that mark.  This line is called the grip midline.  We extend this midline on the ball beyond the positive axis point that we have found using various methods (marking a thrown ball, using an armadillo, etc.).  Finally, we draw a perpendicular line to the midline that intersects the positive axis point.  This line is commonly referred to as the vertical axis line.  We then note those positive axis point measurements as (blank) inches over x (blank) inches up or down.

I hope that everyone can agree on this so far.  These are relatively simple concepts.

The problem with the layout video deals with the process of how you reversed your positive axis point measurements.  In a situation where the bowler has a vertical coordinate measurement in their positive axis point (whether it's up or down), you must measure the vertical axis line measurement first, and then draw the perpendicular midline across the ball at the appropriate measurement.  Finally, you draw your final perpendicular line at the appropriate distance to mark the centerline of your "grip to be."  Your video showed you "reversing" the midline measurement first and then measuring a vertical measurement along the centerline of the grip.  This process is not valid and does not result in the appropriate pin to axis measurements.

The problem with this method is that you are drawing perpendicular lines on the surface of a spherical object.  If the bowling ball was flat, like a piece of paper, this method would be perfectly fine.  But when you reverse the midline first, followed by the vertical measurement, you are changing the relationship of the pin to the bowler's positive axis point.

I tried a few examples here to give an example of what I'm talking about.  All of these layouts were done with a 4 1/2" pin distance at a 50 degree layout, just like your video example.

I used your layout method with a 5 3/4" x 1/2" Up PAP.  After using your method, I decided to layout the bowler's positive axis point using the process described above, which everyone uses in the pro shop world.  When I draw the bowler's PAP using perpendicular lines on the bowling ball from the grip center found using your layout method, the PAP moves approximately 3/8" from the original location.  Using a PAP of 5 3/4" x 1" Up results in a larger "miss" of 3/4".

I did two other examples using the 4 1/2" pin distance at a 50 degree angle.  Using a 4 1/2" x 1/2" up PAP results in a "miss" of 1/4".  Finally, using a PAP of 4 1/2" x 1" Up results in a larger "miss" of 1/2"

It's important to note that the size of the bowling ball does matter in this exercise.  The Pro-Sect does not adjust for the size of the bowling ball, and the ball can range up to .095" difference in diameter.  Pro shop operators and bowlers can try these examples that I've posed, but you may receive a slightly different measurement in the amount that the PAP moves.

Again, I hope people can see that the reason you must "reverse" the vertical measurement in a PAP first is because we are drawing lines on a spherical object.  Also note that the longer your horizontal and vertical measurements measure, the larger the error would be in using this PAP reversing method.  Your axis point measurements may be small enough to negate the error in most examples, but others will not.

In finishing, it's crucial to reverse the positive axis point in the appropriate manner so that you end up with the ball reaction you expected.  In the example above of the bowler with a 5 3/4" x 1" Up PAP, I told you that the actual PAP moved by 3/4".  In this example, the pin changed in relationship to the bowler's PAP by 3/4", and a 4 1/2" pin distance became 5 1/4".  This would create a significant difference in ball reaction and may lead to undesirable results.

I hope that people understand this explanation, and if they have any questions about this process, I'll be glad to respond to them in this forum.  Nick, I hope I didn't offend.  I just want to educate people in these methods, and we need people to have the best understanding possible.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

Edited on 10/26/2006 11:16 AM

Greg T

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2006, 12:15:02 PM »
Jeff, it would be much appreciated if you could post a vid of your method, explaining each move as you progress.







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Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2006, 12:29:11 PM »
Sorry Greg, but I don't own a video camera at this time.

Do you understand conceptually what I'm talking about though?  If you do not measure up/down the vertical axis line first and the reverse the midline, you will not end up with the desired pin position.  And the longer the measurements of your midline and vertical axis line, the larger this error amount will be.

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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

BrunsNick

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2006, 12:46:28 PM »
Here is another verson of laying out a ball, this time by Rick Benoit.

www.brunsnick.com/benoitclassic.wmv

When I wake up a little more and wipe out the sleep boogers in my eyes, I'll read your post. I don't function til I get a little Dr. Pepper in me.
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-06
http://www.BrunsNick.com
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2006, 12:55:12 PM »
Hey Nick,

This video works perfectly as the bowler has no vertical coordinate in their PAP.  So their positive axis point measures 5" over x 0" (no vertical measurement).  This is the ONLY scenario where reversing the midline of the grip first will hold the pin in the same relationship to the positive axis point.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

BrunsNick

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2006, 01:06:51 PM »
I do appreciate the feedback, Jeff. When I get to the shop, I will see where my pin to pap sits with the lines drawn. Then I'll use your method, and see if I get a different outcome. This time I will not make the video so "quick n dirty".

Mapping a ball for video purposes really hasn't been done much, so there's bound to be a few hiccups.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-06
http://www.BrunsNick.com
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2006, 01:09:47 PM »
I completely understand.  With your PAP measurements, you should be within a 1/2" or so.  Just want to make sure we are all educating people the right way.  Thanks!
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

Greg T

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2006, 01:12:07 PM »
quote:
Sorry Greg, but I don't own a video camera at this time.

Do you understand conceptually what I'm talking about though?  If you do not measure up/down the vertical axis line first and the reverse the midline, you will not end up with the desired pin position.  And the longer the measurements of your midline and vertical axis line, the larger this error amount will be.

--------------------
Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com



   I understand exactly what you're saying. But you know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. It would be excellent to see that in motion along with the explanation.







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BrunsNick

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2006, 01:14:02 PM »
With Jeff's help, I'm going to re-evaluate the process. Look for updates soon!
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-06
http://www.BrunsNick.com
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2006, 01:19:50 PM »
Try this when you get to your local pro shop:

Choose a pin distance and a degree layout for a new ball.  Draw the line from the pin to the mass bias locator as usual.  Draw your angle line (50 degrees in Nick's example).  Measure from the pin down that line for the pin to PAP distance that you selected.

From this point, try reversing your PAP as shown in the video.  If your positive axis point is 5" over x 3/4" up, then draw a 5" line from that PAP mark across the ball, draw a perpendicular centerline, and measure 3/4" down to reflect the vertical measurement.  If you've been laying balls out in this method, then you recognize this point as the bowler's grip center.  Because the grip center is located in relation to the gripping holes, this point is true, and does not change.

But your PAP is measured from the grip center as I originally described in the first post.  So now draw those same PAP measurements (5" over x 3/4" up in my example) on the bowling ball.  You'll find that the PAP you've just drawn does not match the one that you were trying to originally achieve.  This happens because you are drawing the lines on a spherical object.

In this example, you incorrecty reversed the midline first and then drew a perpendicular line to that called the centerline.  The error occurs when you adjust for a vertical axis measurement along that centerline.

And I do want to clarify one point.  I was actually in error earlier when I told Nick that a PAP with no vertical measurement was the only example where his video method would hold true.  That is completely FALSE.  Another scenario exists where the bowler's horizontal measurment in their PAP is 6 3/4".  Because the centerline, midline, and vertical axis line are all perpendicular to each other in this new example, you could use the reversing method shown in the video.  Other than those 2 scenarios, you will have an error margin in every example.

Told ya I'm a geometry geek.  My best advice is to try this on your own with some balls.  I believe you'll see very quickly the error that is caused by not reversing the vertical axis line measurement first.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

Edited on 10/26/2006 1:15 PM

Edited on 10/26/2006 1:16 PM

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2006, 01:31:50 PM »
Oh, by the way, to Raven289:

I haven't really adressed your post yet.  You are dead on with the proper method to accomplish everything you're looking for.  You do have to make sure that you are measuring the horizontal measruement along your tangent line from the point that is perpendicular to the midline and goes through the pin.

Your description leads me to believe that you know conceptually how to draw everything on the bowling ball.  It's great to find people geometrically visioned people.

Geometry is cool!!!
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com