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Author Topic: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*  (Read 12299 times)

BrunsNick

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Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« on: October 25, 2006, 07:49:29 PM »
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-06
http://www.BrunsNick.com
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!


Edited on 10/26/2006 3:38 PM
Nick Smith
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Strapper_Squared

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2006, 01:48:01 PM »
I still liked the video .  I have always done layouts as Don...  drawing an arc from the intended PAP to get the vertical component of your PAP measurement and drawing an arc from the pin to get the pin height relative to the center of grip.  

My problem is always deciding on how far above my center of grip I want the pin located...  which really comes down to the conceptual layout of the ball and deciding what exactly I want the ball to do and how can I best achieve this...  

S^2
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Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2006, 02:07:49 PM »
Through my bowling experience, I would argue that pin to PAP relationship, preferred spin axis (sometimes indicated by a mass bias locator) to PAP relationship, and ball surface are far stronger influences on your bowling ball reaction.

I don't mean to discount pin height as a factor in your ball's reaction.  It certainly plays a role.  But, try not to relate pin height as a predominant factor in your bowling ball's ability to accomplish certain things.  In my stuff, I use pin height as a minor adjustment in the length of my ball reaction.

You can check out more of my ball arsenal at www.proshoptraining.com.  It includes pics, layout descriptions, and a general review of each ball I've drilled recently.  I think you'll find some great info there.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
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BrunsNick

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2006, 03:43:54 PM »
Video is updated... Thanks Jeff
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-06
http://www.BrunsNick.com
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

Strapper_Squared

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2006, 03:46:05 PM »
Thanks for the info Jeff.  Yes, definitely ball surface first followed by pin distance and then psa location...  maybe weight hole size depth & location and then pin height in terms of greater to less influences?  

I like the equipment section of your site.  It just goes to show that ball drilling is still an "art" to some extent...  sometimes its tough to get the desired reaction out of the lanes...  

Thanks for posting and sharing knowledge.

S^2      

quote:
Through my bowling experience, I would argue that pin to PAP relationship, preferred spin axis (sometimes indicated by a mass bias locator) to PAP relationship, and ball surface are far stronger influences on your bowling ball reaction.

I don't mean to discount pin height as a factor in your ball's reaction.  It certainly plays a role.  But, try not to relate pin height as a predominant factor in your bowling ball's ability to accomplish certain things.  In my stuff, I use pin height as a minor adjustment in the length of my ball reaction.


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-Was Chris Berman trying to grow a moustache on MNF, or was that pine tar?

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Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2006, 03:54:50 PM »
I made Nick's video!!!  Sweeeeeeett!

I'm glad you saw what I was talking about.  Geometry is the best!!

Anybody up for some pythagorean thoerem on a spherical object measuring 8.595" in diameter?  Ah, never mind.
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Jeff Ussery
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BrunsNick

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2006, 04:00:01 PM »
I just wasn't thinking spherically enough

However, pin to pap could be assumed as an estimation, as pap could change (OMG END OF THE WORLD!!) lol, thanks for the help Jeff!



quote:
I made Nick's video!!!  Sweeeeeeett!

I'm glad you saw what I was talking about.  Geometry is the best!!

Anybody up for some pythagorean thoerem on a spherical object measuring 8.595" in diameter?  Ah, never mind.
--------------------
Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-06
http://www.BrunsNick.com
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2006, 04:05:06 PM »
Wait until the day where I bring up the topic that the Kaufman Scale doesn't weigh what the United States Bowling Congress wants you to weigh as side, finger/thumb, and top/bottom weight.

Ah shucks, I just did.  OMG, that's one of the really cool geometry lessons.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

Edited on 10/26/2006 3:59 PM

BrunsNick

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2006, 04:06:03 PM »
With better understanding thanks to GG (Geometry God), I can make a short video showing how the mistake I made can affect the center of grip greater...

We can take 5 1/2 x 1 1/2 up and see the differences in the result of center of grip when we measure the right way, and the wrong way.


--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-06
http://www.BrunsNick.com
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2006, 04:38:07 PM »
I think that video would enlighten people very much.

I can't believe I posted that comment about the scale and nobody immediately disputed me.  Ha, maybe they already know about it.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

JohnP

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2006, 10:49:59 PM »
quote:
I can't believe I posted that comment about the scale and nobody immediately disputed me. Ha, maybe they already know about it.


Nope, don't know about it, but would like an explanation in case I disagree!! --  JohnP

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2006, 10:13:34 AM »
Ah ha, an interested student,

The United States Bowling Congress defines certain static weight limits that our bowling balls must comply with.  Those weights are:

For a ball weighing 10 pounds or more:
(a) Not more than three ounces difference between the top of ball (finger hole side)and the bottom (solid side opposite finger holes).
(b) Not more than one ounce difference between the sides to the right and left of
the finger holes or between the sides in front and back of the finger holes.

The weight limit in remark (a) is known as top weight.  We refer to the other weights as side weight (positive or negative) and finger/thumb weight.  This rule implies that we are weighing the difference between the two ball halves from 3 different positions.

The inherent problem with the Kaufman scale is that it does not weigh through the center of the bowling ball.  The ball is held in the ring to the left side of the scale.  There are two bearings that the scale pivots on, located just to the right of the bowling ball.  The line that passes through these two bearings is in fact parallel to the line described in the static weight rule above (whether it be side, top/bottom, or finger/thumb).  But because this line that passes through the pivot point does not pass through the center of the bowling ball, you are not getting a true representation of the difference between the two ball halves.  You are weighing an object on the end of a pendulum with weights suspended at an appropriate distance in the opposite direction.

This difference or error margin increases as multiple densities and pieces of material are present inside the bowling ball.  The scale is not able to adjust for different positions and manipulations of core design.  It is pre-calibrated with a particular set of balls and is designed to perform within a certain range.

Now don't get me wrong.  I'm not slamming the Kaufman Scale or anything.  In fact, I think it's a great scale.  It's obviously the industry standard, and pictures of it even appear in the equipment specifications manual.  What I find to be comical is that we have a rule in our USBC rulebook that virtually none of us can follow, due to the lack of a properly designed scale.  In fact, for decades your bowling balls have been weighed at the ABC/USBC tournament on a Kaufman Scale, as it is the accepted standard.

But it's important to realize that the Kaufman scale is not weighing EXACTLY what the rule book defines as our static weights.  Without weighing exactly through the center of the ball, it is impossible to weigh the ball as definied in the rulebook.

I'm working on some qualitative data that I'll post for you later today.  I've been testing balls on different scales for years, and this subject has come up several times in the design phase of other new products.  Hopefully you can conceptually see how not weighing on a pivot point that travels through the center of the ball will not give you the EXACT results that you are trying to find.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

JohnP

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2006, 11:42:16 AM »
Perhaps the solution to this conundrum (if an solution is required) would be to change the rule to define the weight imbalances to be ". . . as determined on a Kaufman balance".  --  JohnP

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2006, 11:57:50 AM »
That would be a good solution.  To define a device that is the industry standard would be an improvement to the industry.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com

CoachJim

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2006, 04:57:48 PM »
Good point Jeff, the problem is they don't use a Kaufman scale at the Nats anymore, they use a digital scale (I'm not sure of the type or manufacturer), where the ball sits(floats) in a ring which is in the center of the ball. The problem arises when this scale is the one that we are held to and we drilled it using a Kaufman, so I saw a bunch of people getting weight holes the last couple of years, some that were leagle the year before when they used the Kaufman at the Nats.

Jeff Ussery

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Re: Mapping out a bowling ball VIDEO *updated vid*
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2006, 05:06:15 PM »
Hi Jim,

I was actually the "conceptual" designer of that unit while at my last employer.  But I'll admit that I don't fully understand the level of mathematics and construction that go into the device.  The unit does weight through the center of the bowling ball, but it is an extremely sensitive unit.

They actually do still use Kaufman scales at the tournament.  When I was at the tournament viewing the process, every ball that came up illegal was then checked on a Kaufman scale.

Of course, this brings up a whole different set of issues when your weighing between 2 different scales.  We won't even delve into that here.

Hopefully everybody understands the physical concepts between trying to weigh a round object, one half versus the other, in a pivoting beam type scale.
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Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com