Author Topic: MB angle and reaction (Read 4209 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** May 15, 2009, 05:27:58 AM »

What is your favorite MB drill angle and what reaction do you get from it??
What is the pin to PAP too?

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2009, 01:39:29 PM »

For what condition?

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

J_w73 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2009, 02:35:12 PM »

I guess medium... I am just trying to get a bunch of pin to pap and MB drill angles and what they are good for.. line , condition, reaction..
to see if I can get a good idea what degree angle is good for what and what is too much..

The smallest I have gone is 45 deg on my cell and it didn't work out too well for what I wanted.. made it smooth and no backend or recovery.... I was looking for smooth but able to cover alot of boards..

I usually use 60.. seems to be skid flippish which is what I like.... I had a 55 and that seemed not as flippy but still a big backend..I tried 70 and it was kind of like the cell , no recovery.. I think the cell was cause of burn up I don't know why the 70 didn't work..

I know I'm throwing out a bunch of numbers and they don't mean much because they are all on different balls.. I just figured if I could get enough replies I could create some sort of conclusion of what seems to work..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_Mac · « **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2009, 02:54:53 PM »

That's the trouble with hi tech bowling equipment. What works for you may not work for others and vice versa...

I've used an Archon (overseas Ravage) with a 20x4.5"x20 DA layout and it was the definition of skid flip, BUT polished PK18 can exhibit that sort of reaction even with a layout with the angle sums adding up to 90 (like my AFi) rather than 40.

I have an Awesome Finish with the same coverstock that exhibits much of the same motion down lane even though the pin is over my ring finger and the MB is at 45 degrees. The Ravage that I have has a much larger angle sum of over 120 degrees and that's where I'm finally noting a difference.

General characteristics of a ball are sometimes hard to override even with different MB positions.

J_w73 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2009, 03:06:23 PM »

quote:
That's the trouble with hi tech bowling equipment. What works for you may not work for others and vice versa...

I've used an Archon (overseas Ravage) with a 20x4.5"x20 DA layout and it was the definition of skid flip, BUT polished PK18 can exhibit that sort of reaction even with a layout with the angle sums adding up to 90 (like my AFi) rather than 40.

I have an Awesome Finish with the same coverstock that exhibits much of the same motion down lane even though the pin is over my ring finger and the MB is at 45 degrees. The Ravage that I have has a much larger angle sum of over 120 degrees and that's where I'm finally noting a difference.

General characteristics of a ball are sometimes hard to override even with different MB positions.

That is what sucks.... It may not work from person to person.. and definately from ball to ball is different..
I am just really leary of going away from my 5.5 pin to pap and 60 deg mb layout.. it seems to work for me and everytime I go away from it .. it doesn't seem to work out...
I would say on my widow pearl this layout is a tad late and a tad too angular..
so a slight surface change would probably solve that..

I have a new ball and just want to get all the bang out it possible.. and don't want to ruin it by putting the mass bias in a position that won't give me what I want..
Some will disagree that the MB placement can't ruin a ball.. but I think it can..or atleast give you something that will not react in a way that you want

I think the cover has a ton to do with it also..when I think of hook I think of covering more boards.. in oil or off of dry.. I know they are two different scenarios and differnt balls will react differently...it seems like on newer equipment if you take it down in grit you just get a tighter smoother line...even on heavier oil...
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 5/15/2009 3:17 PM

Moon57 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2009, 03:32:56 PM »

There's some good info at Buddies in the tech section. Might help you out some.

https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm

--------------------
Moon
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So many questions, so little time but I'm having fun.

urbanshaft · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2009, 03:37:03 PM »

ive never liked mb balls
not sure why maybe cause im a low tracker
but i wants a virtual gravity

J_w73 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 15, 2009, 04:01:59 PM »

quote:
ive never liked mb balls
not sure why maybe cause im a low tracker
but i wants a virtual gravity

I'm not becoming a fan of assymetrical because the mb position has just caused me problems..

but I thought it was because I was a high tracker with little axis tilt and have alot of the ball's surface in contact with the lane..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 5/15/2009 4:15 PM

J_w73 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 15, 2009, 04:06:43 PM »

quote:
There's some good info at Buddies in the tech section. Might help you out some.

https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm

--------------------
Moon
--------------------
So many questions, so little time but I'm having fun.

That is a Morich guide.. I think it was the predecessor of the dual angle layout.. I like alot of the morich ideas but not in love with them.. I think they try to take a scientific approach to explaining what is going on with a bowling balls reaction (which I like) but I think they miss the boat in a couple of places...

so according to Morich...

"Ball reaction is determined by the Mass Bias (MB) to PAP distance.
Indicates when the ball revs up and
starts to lose axis rotation and tilt. "

is this when the ball encounters friction .. or in oil.. ??

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 5/15/2009 4:12 PM

J_Mac · « **Reply #9 on:** May 15, 2009, 04:14:41 PM »

quote:

is this when the ball encounters friction .. or in oil.. ??

Some balls encounter friction even in oil...

J_w73 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 15, 2009, 04:21:43 PM »

quote:
quote:

is this when the ball encounters friction .. or in oil.. ??

Some balls encounter friction even in oil...

I understand that.. I guess I don't quite understand what happens or what is going on when the ball revs up and loses axis tilt.

I'm assuming that earlier revs means earlier hook.. I thought the mb placement also controlled how fast the ball would use up its energy when it did encounter friction... or is this more of a factor of the pin to VAL angle..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Moon57 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2009, 04:22:35 PM »

I believe it would have to be when the ball encounters friction but that point is different depending on on the strength of the coverstock and the surface on it. I've got a large track diameter close to the fingers. Recently I'm having success keeping the MB under the thumb or to the left of it depending on pin location. That would be the #1 or #2 mb position according to mo and is supposed to give late revs which it seems to do.
--------------------
Moon
--------------------
So many questions, so little time but I'm having fun.

J_w73 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 15, 2009, 04:25:50 PM »

quote:

I've used an Archon (overseas Ravage) with a 20x4.5"x20 DA layout and it was the definition of skid flip, BUT polished PK18 can exhibit that sort of reaction even with a layout with the angle sums adding up to 90 (like my AFi) rather than 40.

I have an Awesome Finish with the same coverstock that exhibits much of the same motion down lane even though the pin is over my ring finger and the MB is at 45 degrees. The Ravage that I have has a much larger angle sum of over 120 degrees and that's where I'm finally noting a difference.

General characteristics of a ball are sometimes hard to override even with different MB positions.

I understand what you are saying.. it is hard to make a early rolling arching ball skid flip and vise versa..regardless of MB position.. I think that is where I also got into trouble.. where my 70 deg mb ball was a pretty rolly heavy oil ball.. but I wanted to try to make it more skid flippy or as skid flippy as it could be for that ball.. the layout just didn't match up well with the ball..

I would
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

charlest · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2009, 05:11:45 PM »

J_W73,

You need to study Mo's Dual Angle method to really understand this stuff. YOu need to understand it before asking any questions.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

J_w73 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2009, 06:02:02 PM »

quote:
J_W73,

You need to study Mo's Dual Angle method to really understand this stuff. YOu need to understand it before asking any questions.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

I understand the morich dual angle method.. most of it..

What is more important VAL angle or MB drill angle..

VAL angle determines:

how fast the ball revs up and how fast the ball transitions at the breakpoint

The mb drill angle determine:

How soon the ball will get into a roll..

What does the above statement mean and how is that different than what the VAL angle does..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Author Topic: MB angle and reaction (Read 4209 times)

J_w73

MB angle and reaction

LuckyLefty

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J_w73

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J_Mac

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J_w73

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Moon57

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urbanshaft

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J_w73

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J_w73

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J_Mac

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J_w73

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Moon57

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J_w73

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charlest

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J_w73

Re: MB angle and reaction