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General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: loose5682 on October 29, 2004, 03:24:40 AM

Title: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: loose5682 on October 29, 2004, 03:24:40 AM
In theory, taking a ball with an MB (or maybe one that isn't marked and measuring it out) and putting it on the VAL would help to decrease the backend movement of the ball.  I had a Phenom Unleashed with pin under ring, MB on VAL and the thing was pretty good on screaming backends, however, it was also a 1" pin, so maybe that had something to do with it too?  The PU was shined rather high (2000 grit I believe) so of course that played into the situation too.  

This would be rather helpful as i'm looking for a reaction that would basically die on the backends, and sort of ignore the midlanes too, and I think that putting the MB on VAL would kind of kill the backend.  MB position shapes the backend, pin position shapes the front and mids, right?  So therefore in theory, if I put the pin in a place where the ball will read the mids a little bit (maybe under ring?) and the MB on VAL, the ball would check up a little bit in the mids and then just kind of fade on the backend, right?  

Just kinda checking my theories here, not only for my benefit, but i'm training in a shop now too, so i'm trying to get an idea of all the different layouts too.
--------------------
Andrew Loose
"King of Them All"
"Evolutionary. Revolutionary."
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: loose5682 on October 29, 2004, 02:19:14 PM
i've heard of pin on PAP, cg/MB on grip midline...never seen one rolled though.

This is the part that i'm still learning, what exactly is "leverage pin"?

And 135 degree would be basically if you take a regular 45 degree drill and just switch them, right?  And seeing how this is not really similar, but something LIKE the 315, would you also need a LOW topweight and 1" pin?

--------------------
Andrew Loose
"King of Them All"
"Evolutionary. Revolutionary."
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 29, 2004, 02:28:03 PM
quote:
This is the part that i'm still learning, what exactly is "leverage pin"?

"leverage pin" is when the pin is placed 3 3/8"/45° from PAP.
quote:
And 135 degree would be basically if you take a regular 45 degree drill and just switch them, right?

No a 135° is when the line from PAP to pin and then MB makes a 135° angle.
Switching them would give you a 225° drill 45° + 180° = 225°
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STORMIN1

Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 29, 2004, 02:29:51 PM
Here is a link that explains ° drillings very well.
http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/mario/mario_315degreelayout.htm
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STORMIN1

Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: loose5682 on October 29, 2004, 02:37:52 PM
I see...so if a 45 degree drilling is this... / (work with me, i know it's a raw description), and a 90 degree drill is this... -, then a 135 degree drilling would be this... \ where the bottom right of the \ is the pin, the middle is the CG, and the top left of the \ is the MB, right?
--------------------
Andrew Loose
"King of Them All"
"Evolutionary. Revolutionary."
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 29, 2004, 02:49:02 PM 
*=pin  P=PAP  x=MB
    
*  P
x      90° 

 
      
* P
  x   45°
 
  
    
  * P
x      135° 
 
   
    
x * P  180°

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STORMIN1



Edited on 10/29/2004 2:49 PM

Edited on 10/29/2004 2:50 PM
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 29, 2004, 02:58:07 PM
It may be easier to relate in time
Let say 3:00 is PAP and clock center is pin with those set.
MB placement:
3:30 = 15°
4:00 = 30°
4:30 = 45°
etc. 15° for every half hour of movement of the hour hand or 6° for every minute.
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STORMIN1

Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: loose5682 on October 29, 2004, 03:08:19 PM
Both the diagrams and the clock example make perfect sense now, thanks Stormin!  But would MB on VAL make for a weaker backend reaction?
--------------------
Andrew Loose
"King of Them All"
"Evolutionary. Revolutionary."
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 29, 2004, 03:16:20 PM
Maybe
It depends on the bowler and the balls dynamics.
A more up the back bowler with minimal tilt and rotation would have virtually no backend.
On the other hand a bowler with high tilt and rotation may get a flip reaction from this drilling.
When the MB is swung out toward your PAP/VAL it looses tilt and rotation faster for given pin to PAP distance, but depending on the degree of the bowlers tilt and rotation it may loose T & A too fast and cause roll out or vise versa.
Hope I didn't muddy the waters too much. I think you get the idea though.
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STORMIN1



Edited on 10/29/2004 3:16 PM
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 29, 2004, 03:26:48 PM
As far as your PU I think it is more a product of the short pin to CG distance and the pin under than the MB placement.
I too have a PU but it is drilled pin above on bridge line and MB @ 40° which ends up being 4 1/4" pin to PAP and 4" MB to PAP  MB about 1" from VAL.
And for me it is more a of a skid/flip strong arc reaction this is due to the fact when I am using it I am playing deeper and increasing my axis rotation to increase recovery in the backend and go around the carrydown that is in the track area.
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STORMIN1

Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: loose5682 on October 29, 2004, 03:33:53 PM
No no, no muddiness here...makes perfect sense, so far, however I don't know my tilt, but I am a high tracker, so how would these layouts affect that, especially with regards to clipping the thumbhole?
--------------------
Andrew Loose
"King of Them All"
"Evolutionary. Revolutionary."
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 29, 2004, 03:47:53 PM
To find out what your tilt is you need to measure your track and for every 1" less than 13.5" that it is, is 6 2/3° of axis tilt.

Clipping the thumb hole is a product of the release only and is not affected by the layout. I say this because as a ball flares the track migrates away form the thumb and towards the finger. High trackers can run into problems with flaring over the fingers though. That is why they suggest keeping the pin above the fingers. The point where the tracks converge (bowtie) is a directly affected by pin placement. In other words the bowtie will be higher in respect to grip center with a higher pin.

A tip I was told to try and get my track further from my thumb that seems to help is to rotate your hand around to where more of the ball weight is felt on the pointer finger at address and try and keep that feeling until just before release. You might try it during practice, it will feel awkward at first, but it helped me and now I do it subconsiously.
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STORMIN1

Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Burak Natal on October 29, 2004, 06:51:10 PM
In addition to what stormin1 said;

Do not pull your fingers inwards during the release. Try to keep them firm and closed while rotating your wrist around the ball. Make sure that you clear the thumb before and not to over turn.

Burak
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: loose5682 on October 30, 2004, 01:21:16 PM
Stormin, when you say measure your track, what exactly do you mean?  I know it's going to seem completely obvious after you explain it, but i'm not entirely sure about it now.
--------------------
Andrew Loose
"King of Them All"
"Evolutionary. Revolutionary."
Title: Re: MB on VAL for drier lane conditions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 31, 2004, 12:27:15 AM
Roll a low flare ball with a normal release up the 4th arrow where there is a concentration of oil then measure the diameter of the track on the negative side of the ball, pointer finger side.
If you don't have a low flare ball you can use any ball but you need to measure the diameter of the track that is closest to your thumb and furthest from your fingers this is the first track.
If you want you can IM me an e-mail address and I will send you a pic that will give a visual explanation
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STORMIN1



Edited on 10/31/2004 0:37 AM