Thought this was important, was posted in the wrong place thought it should be seen in drilling!

johns811
Ok, we have beat the thumb lateral test to death.

Is there a test to determine forward/reverse pitches?

JohnP-

johns811 -- Years ago Bill Taylor developed a chart for thumb pitch (forward/reverse) versus span at various degrees of flexibility. That chart is still commonly used, and can be viewed at the Jayhawk web site in the fitting section. Other than that, I am not aware of any test other than using an adjustable fitting ball for the customer to get the feel of various pitches. -- JohnP

Magic Carpet
  Don't squeeze.
Keep drilling more forward until you can't clear the thumb easily.
Then try to live with it for a few practice sessions. (Don't squeeze)
Then if you still can't clear the thumb back off on the forward a little.

It's the only way believe me.
Ron Clifton

Jeff Mop
  I agree with Magic Carpet. Bill Taylor's chart is a great starting point, but after that, trial and error is the very best way. Keep going forward until you can't clear the thumb even without squeezing.

--------------------
==========================================
"Bill, strange things are afoot at the Circle-K"

Tornadoes might suck, but hurricanes blow.

Columbia bowls the world over http://www.columbia300.com/

Learn the basics of ball layouts and pin positions so you can be INVOLVED in drilling your equipment:
http://www.bowlingfans.com/jeff/ballreactionbasics.html

LuckyLefty
 Posted: 10/19/2004 12:47 PM  

 However, Often adding bevel to the front of the hole will allow one to have more forward than without bevel.

Front is definged as the surface where the flat of your thumb is resting.

Usually pointing a little towards your ring finger!

REgards,

Luckylefty

LuckyLefty-

John811,

Here again is BT table.
Span.......Pitch
4 pitch = 1/8 forward
4 1/4 pitch = 0
4 3/8 pitch = 1/16 reverse
4 1/2 pitch = 1/8 reverse
4 3/4 pitch = 1/4 reverse
4 7/8 pitch = 5/16 reverse

The concept is ever 1/8 of span past 4 1/4 = 1/16 of added reverse pitch.
Ever 1/8 of span less than 4 1/4 = 1/16 more forward

This is based on Bill Taylor's famous 63 degree test. Angle of top front of fingers to top front fingers drawn to top front of thumb and then thumb angle drawn thru the surface of the ball(straight lines) is approx 63 degrees for all bowlers with standard thumb flexibility. About 105 degrees.

He then added general rules that if thumb was short(under 2 1/4") or dry or bowler was a dropper then subtract 1/8 reverse or move forward 1/8 from tables.

As a shorter dryer thumb the table with 1/8 forward almost works perfect for me.

Longer thumbs, wetter thumbs and stiffers thumbs usually add 1/8.

Two warnings.

1. The rule above practiced by some of our top experts(Magic Carpet and Jeff Mop whom I both respect greatly). Can result in funny results.
Example .... Yesterday I go to center. Guy is practicing before scratch league. Just before release he is having his upper body dip noticeably and on every throw he is lofting and nearly hanging in front of thumb. Still getting good hook with this dip.

I ask my friend the house driller, have you seen this? Yep. I ask guy is that a new pitch or span for you? NOPE! Had it for awhile. What are pitches I queried? He said I'm 1/4 forward and the span is almost 5 .... alittle over 4 3/4. HMMMMMMMM.?? I say nothing. Let's see, 4 3/4 Bill Taylor says 1/4 reverse he is 1/4 forward hmmm that is only a 1/2 inch difference.

Now I will tell you he MUST dip or that ball is going thru the roof! At this point either a weakening of the holding pitch(add reverse) by 1/8, 3/16 or so is necessary.
OR a dramatic increase in front bevel!

Agreed for many the Bill Taylor tables are a little more reverse than today's top bowlers are using. Except those with stiff thumbs. Only 90 degree or less flexibility.

2. Second caveat is nerve damage. A bunch of guys in my former location decided to move their thumb pitches forward 1/4 from their current location while not changing span. SOme had custom thumbs. Several came to me and said...Do YOU know why I've got this black mark near the top of my thumb and also some pains in it??? NoooooOOOOOOO! kidding. YOu see a dramtic move forward without a span change(shortening) makes the edge of the thumbhole sharper. Think of a righ turn for your car that is 90 degrees versus one that is 75 degree turn, greater than right angle! That is what your thumb must now do. Be careful that black mark and tingling can cause near permanent nerve damage if left unattended.

Either move forward very slowly more like 1/8 at a time and also increase front bevel if there is any hanging or pain! Also realize 0, forward or reverse are not good or bad. Everything should be referenced instead to forward of the magic 63 degree table or reverse in relation to the 63 degree table.

For example a good bowler shoots an 800. YOu go and say, hey do you use forward or reverse. He says, "Ummm I use forward". His span is 4 and yours is 5. You go to your driller and say, "I want to use forward"! What your didn't know was that he was using 1/16 forward which is 1/16 more reverse than tables.

You on the other hand will now have to move 3/8 forward of tables to get to forward. Maybe the right move for you is to 5/16 REVERSE from 3/8 reverse.
This is a comparable move for your span.

Bon Appetit.

Hope this helps someone!

REgards,

Luckylefty

LuckyLefty -

This post is important for those making forward moves with thumb.

For safety health and throwing.

REgards,

LUckylefty

Edited on 10/22/2004 3:56 PM

I've only been around here a short time compared to many...but have learned a great deal in those months from what others have taken years to learn and are willing to share

First...thank you all.

Second...why isn't there someplace on BR where this wisdom can be referenced permanently...instead of being bumped and copied and reposted...?

for bob7
Why did you take the lateral out?
I have gone from 3/8 reverse to 3/16 to 1/16 with great results. Smooth releae but hanging onto ball better with resulting better armswing and less grabbing at release.
Just had to keep going and now trying 1/16 forward and hanging.
What effect does taking the lateral out do?

timw

Bob7 -- The following link will take you to the Pro Shop Forms index on the Jayhawk site.  I'm giving you this because there are other forms there you might be interested in seeing.  The one for thumb pitches is titled Thumb Angle Conversion Chart.

http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/forms.html

My thoughts on lateral thumb pitches:

For the typical house bowler, averaging less than 200 on a THS, you're looking for a thumb pitch combination that allows the bowler to release the ball without either hanging or grabbing, and that does not damage the thumb.  This will be 95% dependent on thumb flexibility and the thumb hinge angle, both of which vary GREATLY from bowler to bowler.  That's why the Coke bottle test and other similar tests are used, to determine the hinge angle.  Most drillers are able to analyze the thumb by manually manipulating it and determine this angle much more accurately than any test invented.  The tests simply confirm our analysis.  Other hints, such as callousing with the pitches in the ball currently being used, can also be used.  Proper finger pitch for the bowler's flexibility also comes into play, as too much forward finger pitch can "lock" the thumb into the ball even with proper angle as determined by the hinge.

For the advanced bowler, however, other factors come into play.  Determination of the correct hinge angle should be done first.  But then you have to consider exactly what the bowler wants from the ball.  All further comments will be based on pitches for a right handed bowler, reverse if you are a leftie.  Adding left pitch beyond what's called for by the hinge angle will make it easier for the bowler to stay behind the ball, or "up the back".  You may also have to slightly reduce the amount of reverse pitch to prevent grabbing.  Adding a slight excess of left pitch will not cause thumb damage as long as the reverse is adjusted as necessary.  Adding excess right pitch will help force the bowler to turn the ball, in fact going too far will force him to rotate it to get out cleanly unless additional reverse is added.  I have used this combination to help teach bowlers to turn the ball, they either turn it or hang in it.  But excess right pitch will cause thumb callousing and eventually pain, so be careful!  --  JohnP