Here is the rest of that topic:
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Posted: 6/1/2003 2:52 AM
holy cow Lefty, I think that is the most information I have read in one setting in a good while.
being stupid (as I tend to be) I had played around with up to 1/2" forward pitch with a 4 5/8" span. Of course then being uneducated with fitment as I was at the time, I also thought that little to no bevel would be good as well to further prevent squeezing....that was stupid too.
anyhow used to have 3/8" lateral under palm, and have always had callouses on the inner part of my thumb (if hand is flat on table, the part of the thumb that touches my index finger). Well, on the coke bottle test my thumb points PAST my index finger. Which indicates that I should be using a lateral out pitch.
I had all of this figured out when I drilled my inferno, but ended up selling it, before I converted my other balls to the proper fit, but I plan on fixing up the others soon. With the inferno I had used 0 lateral thumb pitch, and reduced the area of the callousing on the thumb, but there was still some present. So, I might go as far as to try 1/8th lateral away and see if that continues to help.
Now if only I could figure out the swelling in the fingers....
Thanks for sharing your knowledge that you have gathered on grip qualities, etc.
Can you Rev
CYR
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Posted: 6/1/2003 2:56 AM
just as an added note, it was funny to see the difference in revs I got with the inferno having the 1/8th reverse in comparison to the 1/2" forward that I have in my other balls. Not like I really need any more revs, but the consistency of the thumb's exit was much better with the more "proper" reverse pitch
Can you Rev
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BrianN
Posted: 6/3/2003 9:01 PM
Where are you located, LL? If I'm ever near there, I'd love to have you fit and drill a ball or two for me.
I had hand pain first year back, spent a lot of time on finger exercises. I think I overdid it and shortened the tendons, thereby shortening my span.
In a ball that fit perfectly the year before, my middle finger was "popping up" when I laid my palm flat on the ball. So now I'm between spans. I am not a real "feel" bowler but these were obvious. I was coming over the top of the ball.
I had a couple of the spans shortened on the stuff I used a lot, like my Thunder Flash and Spirit. Some of the others, I left alone.
One driller will do exactly as you ask, not in any djinn-like sense, but really trying to accommodate you. I say to him, I take responsibility for any problems, take 1/8" off this span. I have had 3 balls done by him and they feel great. Middle finger is actually a little shorter than ring, which seems weird.
Another driller does things his way. He is cautious, and will only take 1/16" off. The former's seem better on a league condition, the latter seem better on a sport condition or tournament condition.
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Posted: 6/4/2003 12:23 PM
Most peoples middle finger span is shorter than the ring finger!
Even though the middle finger is longer. The breakeven point is 5/16 according to Bill Taylor.
If the middle finger is longer than the ring finger (when hand laid on the ball) by 5/16 of an inch then the spans are equal. Don't look equal!!! (Middle finger looks longer) if the middle finger is 3/8 longer than the ring when laid on the ball then middle finger span is longer.
Can you Rev,
As we have discussed together coke bottle test is based on where the TIP of the thumb points when grabbing a cylinder. Not the main body of the thumb.
If the tip points between the index and middle finger that is a 0 lateral pitch.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Posted: 6/4/2003 3:45 PM
LUCKYLefty,i tried the coke bottle test and my thumb points towards my ring finger.My span is 4 and1/2 by 4and3/8.According to this could you tell me what pitches for my thumb would be. The reason i am asking is because my pro shop changed my pitches a month ago from 1/8 right to 1/8 left and from 3/16 reverse to 1/4.oh iam right handed.I seem to loe my gripe at least two or three tims a game now and after reading your post it got me to thinking what if my pitches are wrong. Thanks for your help.
Alex
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Posted: 6/4/2003 4:06 PM
Lucky, BT is great and this is a great drilling book. But, in the last chapter, he added this years later, BT talks about a stiff jointed thumb.
Whereas with this type of thumb, more bevel and/or reverse pitch is necessary. This kinda throws out all the rules in the rest of the book..!! In any case, Bill Taylor is the smartest man in bowling. =:^D
T-GOD
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Posted: 6/4/2003 6:08 PM
Lefty, the tip of my thumb points well above my index finger. I just double checked it
It helped when I went from my previous pitch (under palm) to 0 lateral, so I'll sacrifice another slug and see what I get with 1/8 away from palm.
...guess I just have one of the "wierd" thumbs.
Can you Rev
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Posted: 6/5/2003 2:56 AM
Somewhere back along the line, Mother Nature must have realized that bowling would be part of the civilized world. She decided to put three holes in a coconut and made all of us humanoids (including monkeys) with a hand that has a gripping angle of 33 degrees. She figured this would be easier than making every coconut with a different location for holes. She didn't figure on a Bill Taylor, who got hit on the head with a coconut, deciding that he knew more than Mother Nature, and decreed that all Humanoids are made different and that all coconuts should be made different. He started by sitting himself up as Father Nature, and proclaiming he was sent to save the world from having a sensible outlook on fitting and drilling bowling balls. This came from the vision he had when the coconut hit him on the head. His vision also showed him that you can fool most of the people most of time if you can overwhelm them with facts and figures more related to launching a monkey into space than fitting him with a coconut. Mother Nature got PO'd by his preaching and said "let there be Resin and Particle coconuts". Just for good measure she threw in "synthetic lanes". These "revelations" got everyone so screwed up they got to thinking, maybe old "Bill Taylor" was right, out grips aren't right. If we get out grips right, then the mana from heaven will flow, 800's and 300's for everyone. But, lo, everyone didn't have a Coke bottle to measure their gripping angle. They sunk to using pitch guages and span guages. Some even trusted their local "pro" to measure their hand. A dark cloud formed and a pestilence desended on the bowling community. People were bowling without the "Coke" bottle test. Their fate for eternity was to bowl on a 10-10 wall, no blisters to show as a badge, never dropping or hanging up in the ball, and Old Bill's voice thundering from above "Not Coke cans you idiot, a Coke bottle".
BullRed
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Posted: 6/7/2003 3:41 AM
My thumb is similar to yours Can You Rev. When I grab a coke my thumb points OUTSIDE my index finger.
As for forward pitch, I read a BT column in Bowling This Month and you know what he said? Too many ball drillers are giving every bowler reverse pitch in their thumb and some bowlers NEED forward pitch.
I'm shooting the highest scores of my life since changing to using forward and right pitch in the thumbhole so for me at least those pitches seem to work better. I'm not totally satisfied with my current grip and will continue to fine tune it, but I think forward pitch was a change in the right direction for me personally.
Jerry Weller
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Posted: 6/7/2003 3:52 AM
mine also points well past my index finger. looks like there are several of us :-P...
i have always used an away from the palm pitch and a reverse pitch with a lot of bevel, maybe the proshop guys new what they were doing when i was 8 years old!
Justin
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Justin G. Pyle
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Posted: 6/7/2003 7:33 AM
Alex,
It sounds like you were closer when you started than today.
I'm also a points pretty strongly under palm, I point towards my split between ring and middle finger. For me that means 1/4 under palm. For you pointing at ring finger it means 3/8 under palm.
Now Bill Taylor never meant for this to be rigid. He addresses the fact that some people when assuming these perfect anatomical pitches get either too much side roll or too little. Your ball driller may have seen this or maybe you complained about some portion of your roll. Bill Taylor acknowledged these possibilities and gave the solution. Less side roll you move from your ideal point of 3/8 under palm to less under palm. Maybe 1/4 or 1/8 under palm.
REverse pitch off the tables for 4 1/2 inch span is 1/8 reverse (with the palm under lateral pitch). See for you a move to 1/8 lateral out is 1/2 of an inch, a lot. There is a lot less holding power in this lateral out position for you.
You would have to go near 0 forward/reverse to regain your holding power. But frankly it is just too much of a move for you.
For tenpinitis and Can you Rev 1/8 lateral out is there perfect midpoint. They can move with comfort about 1/4 inch around this perfect anatomical pitch to change ball roll.
You on the other hand will probably never be able to make 1/8 lateral out work.
You start at 3/8 lateral under and can probably move 1/4 inch also around this point to tweak ball roll.
PS. If your complaint to your ball driller was that you were hanging, many ball drillers add lateral out pitch to speed the release(you are now too fast). A better solution is stay near where you were laterally and improve bevel.
Jerry Weller,
I hate to discuss forward reverse pitches without knowing spans. They mean nothing. What is your total span and how are your fingers pitched forward/reverse? Then we can have a relevant discussion.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Posted: 6/7/2003 5:10 PM
Lefty I just figure I have a weird hand.
I have bad arthritis in my fingers that limits their flexibility - I use 1 " away in the middle finger and 3/4" away in the ring finger. My span is 4 3/8ths" ring, 4 1/2" to middle. (Normal fingertip grip - not relaxed)
My first balls were drilled by a one size, one drill fits all kind of guy in St. Louis. He'd been in business a long time so I assumed he knew what he was doing when he fit me. After attending a bowling camp I found out why my fingers hurt me after I bowled. Bill Majella (may he rest in peace) was smart enough to see that the backs of my fingers were rubbing the back of my finger holes and tell me that I needed to change my equipment. Zero finger pitch may work well for most folks, but not for me. My nails were getting bruised after bowling and my fingers hurt for days.
Over the next 2 years I added more and more away in the fingers, but nobody was really giving me as much as I needed till one day I asked one of my friends who had just hung up his own pro shop shingle to let me play with his fitting ball. He was good enough to humor me and drill my equipment the way I wanted and that solved that problem.
Later on an online friend who has read Bill Taylor's book told me about the coke can test and that led to me pitching the thumb away from the palm. I noticed that it was easier to stay behind the ball with that drilling. I have never had any problems turning the ball.
The latest experiment came as a result of reading Taylor's article in BTM that said that most drillers give people too much reverse. I've always had problems with dropping shots behind the line throughout my brief adult bowling career unless the ball was super snug with tape. In the past I've had all manner of thumb pitch from zero to 3/8" reverse.
Hearing that forward pitch made it easier to hold on to the ball I went whole hog and embraced the "make it fail" philosophy. I played with the fitting ball and gave myself as much forward pitch as I could where I still could get out of the ball reasonably comfortably. After playing around I elected to put in a full 1/2" of forward pitch in my thumb.
Despite predictions that I wouldn't be able to get out of the ball, would lose revs, etc. I have been bowling well. Occasionally the ball DOES hang on my thumb, so my next experiment with the forward pitch will be 1/4" forward to see if that makes things even better. But for now it's nice not to be dropping shots all the time and I'm shooting some very strong scores.
Jerry Weller
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Posted: 6/9/2003 1:32 PM
Jerry,
I think we had discussed this and we had.
The dramatic reverse pitch, in the fingers requires more forward in the thumb.
Your one inch reverse in the fingers is making it like your span is much shorter.
Let's say almost 1/2 shorter in feel than the charts in my opinion.
At least 1/4 of less reverse more forward must be added to the tables to account for this alone!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS note I had discussed finger reverse and the coordinated reduction in reverse of the thumb abit above but it could have gotten missed in the pure volume of material.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 10:54 AM
The above simply reinforces my theory on fitting a ball to a customer-
There are 3 rules:
1. It doesnt cause injury.
2. Its legal.
3. It works.
It sounds simplistic, but with everything posted above (and there are some VERY salient points in there) that is what you come up with when it is all said and done.
Brenton Davy
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Posted: 6/15/2003 1:39 AM
Davy, You and I have the same outlook on this grip thing. I try to tell my customers that if you can bowl without dropping it, don't hang up, and nothing hurts, you have the "magic" grip. Personally, I don't believe in forward pitches on thumb, 0 is enough. Lateral thumb pitches are to get the thumb pad flat on the forward gripping surface, whatever it takes. I do like to mess with finger pitches to get the fingerpads flat on the ball. Will state again, stay with 33 degree gripping angle on thumb. Thumb oval also. Speaking of thumb ovals, watch out for anyone who releases late or lofts the ball. These guys tend to rotate the thumb in the hole before thumb exits. Oval thumb will cause them grief.
bullred
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Posted: 6/15/2003 9:08 AM
Bull,
33 degree gripping angle?
I have not seen you explain that term before?
Please proceed.
Thanks,
Luckylefty
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Posted: 6/15/2003 10:39 AM
Bull, does cupping your wrist vs having a straight wrist, play any factor in having a 33 degree gripping angle..? =:^D
T-GOD
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Posted: 6/15/2003 1:19 PM
I think you will find that your thumb pad gripping surface will be at 33 degrees from your centerline. All us "primates" are the same. B
bullred
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Posted: 6/15/2003 2:11 PM
Angle oval is oriented to the centerline I find varies.
The proshop that I frequent(I drill at home ) has in the past few months received a
span measuring and oval angle measurement ball from ?? Innovative.
This ball both measure spans and then has an oval shaped hole(adjustable with springloaded front and back surfaces. This hole also twists and allows one to see the orientation of their oval. Mine is 48 degrees off the thumb bridge centerline.
I just received a ball from Da Lefty that I estimate would have been oriented to at least a 55 degree angle!
I think people differ on this. Just as they do on their lateral pitches and the coke bottle test.
T- Guru I have noticed a difference in Forward Reverse Thumb pitches based on cup versus not cupped. Those that cup for a given span tend to be able to have more reverse and still be able to hold. Those that have a straighter wrist at release seem for the same span to often have less reverse or they will drop.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:55 PM
Lucky, well that's what I was trying to get at. So, thumb pitches that are standard, i.e. BT standards, are negotiable, depending on a bowlers release, cupped vs. non cupped. I would assume bevel would fall along the same lines. =:^D
T-GOD
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Posted: 6/16/2003 7:33 AM
T-Guru,
The thing I am finding is that the more dramatically one varies from the tables say forward more than 1/8 from tables(assuming no reverse in fingers), the more front of thumbhole bevel is needed for a given individual(ie that person could have a ball with proper or table reverse with less bevel).
Lately many friends have gone to more forward(on their own), used custom thumbs that are left the same. And then come up to me and complained of bruises or cuts under base of thumb. The problem has been fixed quickly with a little front bevel as determined by the ring finger test. Back to butter.
Also noted is that many of these guys going to forward are bowling with less wrist cup. Maybe getting slightly fewer revs also.
As a note side bevel per individual seems to vary by how much one is off from the perfect anatomical position (lateral pitch). Middle finger test will determine proper amount.
In other words going forward but leaving lateral the same often only requires an increase in front of thumb bevel but not side of thumb bevel.
Of course I also notice that more lateral unders seem to work with a greater amount of reverse in relation to if the same individual uses less lateral under.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS also amount of bevel is needed is often determined by the amount of skin in between the thumb and index finger intersection. The more skin the more bevel needed the less skin the less bevel needed. Credit Joe Moore AMF Williamsburg VA.
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Posted: 6/16/2003 10:41 PM
What if the perfect fit results in an imperfect roll? My perfect fit is 1/4 reverse and 1/2 under but this pitch combination results in so much axis rotation that I'm always in an over/under problem. When I go to 0 lateral and 1/4 reverse I get the ball to read the lane much better and have a better reaction but the pitches cause the thumb nail to crack. So what to do? Toe every tournament with comfort or not practice much and hope the pitches don't cause major trouble during a tournament.
B Pirnie
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Posted: 6/17/2003 7:41 AM
Good question?
My perfect anatomical fit is near yours.
About 3/8 lateral under you being 1/2.
Ring finger point eh!
Bill Taylor anticipated that people would need to adjust roll and talks about adjustments of up to 1/4 inch. I actually have been using 1/8 lateral under and 1/16 lateral under lately also to cut down on my SHARP backend!
This adjustment for me is 1/4 to 5/16.
The 1/16 lateral under seems to start to want to put pressure on the corner of my thumbnail too. A little extra side bevel seems to help. (Do not increase front bevel!)
When Mo Pinel was here he was doing a lot with tilt and rotation by adjusting finger pitches. Often for more tilt more forward with middle finger less forward with ring. For less tilt the opposite. (Note I know you said rotation).
Also slightly straightening lateral pitches can aid in straightening roll.
ie if your middle finger is 3/8 lateral reduce it to 5/16 or 1/4 if no wear on sides this can help. If ring is 3/8 move to 7/16. This definetely straightens roll some.
To summarize if it were me. At 0 lateral thumb I would first add some side bevel.
If this doesn't work with regard to thumb nail chipping I would go back to 1/8 under palm lateral. If ball now turns too much add a touch of reverse to middle finger. Also holes on PAP can stabilize ball too.
With my amount of rotation(a lot like you) and softer speed I bowl with a lot of kicked out cgs and holes on pap. Note I sometimes angle then away from grip center to control midlane but still keep some pop on ball.
I've done this with a smash/r lately and loving it! Even but with a little more POP than my Smooth sledgehammer. Weighthole straight in!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS let us know how any of this works, good luck!
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Posted: 6/19/2003 9:52 PM
I redrilled V2 and a spare ball to 1/4 under and 1/4 reverse. I want to get the thumb nail crack healed then I might push the 0 line again. After being used to seeing the ball roll with 1/8 away or 0 palm, I couldn't believe how much axis rotation the 1/4 under gave me. I'm thinking of drilling something symmetrical-cored with a pin 3 inches from the pap and 1 inch from the val. The cg close to 3 3/8 from pap and the balance hole on the pap or a little closer the grip centerline. It might be rolled out at the arrows but at least I will know I can kill the axis rotation.
B Pirnie
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BPirnie,
Posted: 6/20/2003 8:53 AM
I just read your profile!
Umm another thing guys are doing especially tour type guys like you is reverse in the fingers and a corresponding move slightly forward in the thumb to reduce the hard transition from oil to dry on the tour type shots.
I saw the move you just made and it looks good. I'm surprised you use 1/4 reverse successfully at each lateral pitch. I tend to use my most reverse at my natural anatomical UNDER pitch and I have to go forward from the Bill Taylor tables as I go to less lateral under.
In other words where you are at anatomical perfect 1/2 under and 1/4 reverse, when you go to 1/4 under you stay at 1/4 reverse.
Me my natural under of 3/8 would be say 3/16 reverse at 1/16 under I am 1/16 reverse or it is drop city!
I'm curious about holding power as you move lateral out from anatomically perfect.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Posted: 6/21/2003 0:05 AM
I have heard of the guys using more forward in the thumb and reverse in the fingers but I have not had trouble with the ball jumping at the end of the pattern. Last year most of my trouble was when I had to move in and I couldn't get a reaction with enough angle to carry well. I was usually caught in the 4 10 trap. I would square up a little and 4 pin then in a little and flat 10.
As for the pitches the 1/4 reverse is a little much, but I knew 1/2 under and 1/4 reverse caused no thumb problem. So I went with the 1/4 x 1/4 to make sure the nail healed. So far so good almost completely healed. I have some tape deep in the thumb to make the feel ok. I think I will try 1/4 under by 1/8 reverse when the crack is gone and see how that works.
B Pirnie
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Posted: 6/21/2003 0:31 AM
That is just where my head was regarding proper reverse for 1/4 under.
Another maybe final solution is 1/8 under and 1/16 reverse to get that roll you need.
REgards,
Luckylefty
