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General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: I Flush 8s on November 17, 2009, 02:38:08 PM

Title: my pap changed???
Post by: I Flush 8s on November 17, 2009, 02:38:08 PM
today i was throwing shots and i decided to tape my pap to get a look at how the ball was transitioning through the lane and something struck me for a loop

my pap is 5 inches out and on this ball i had it marked so i always knew where to put the tape but today it was not on the mark it was actually a half inch further out

i threw my 2nd which is drilled rico
i never changed my grip so idk whats going on any input would be great
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: myty299 on November 18, 2009, 12:17:19 PM
im not too sure either, i have a similar issue. i cant find my PAP because i check and it keep moving. throw my vibe with a weight hole 4in out and it looks like it is the PAP and measures to be but i throw my modified rico special angent and it moves to 3 1/4 over and 1/8 down and when i throw all my other stuff the oil is so low its like the PAP is almost in my palm but there are like marks of where the ball rolled closer to the fingers like where a high track players track would be
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on November 18, 2009, 12:25:34 PM
When was the last time you had your PAP checked?  It takes maybe what, 10 minutes to do?  That's where I'd go first if it was a concern to me.
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Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: Bowlin for Beer on November 18, 2009, 01:26:10 PM
I really don't understand all the importance being stressed on PAP.  Most commenters say its imperative to have your PAP determined and measured before drilling a ball.  But, my PAP location changes depending on how I release the ball.  If I put more axis rotation on a ball, the PAP is farther away more forward roll the PAP gets closer and if I put axis tilt on the ball, my PAP is even closer to the grip center.  I'm not an expert my any stretch, but these are my observations.  If you release your balls the same exact way (axis rotation and tilt) every time, then it matters.  Otherwise, I just can't see the significance.  Correct me please.  I would really like to finally put this baby to bed.
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: Dan Belcher on November 18, 2009, 01:34:39 PM
quote:
I really don''t understand all the importance being stressed on PAP.  Most commenters say its imperative to have your PAP determined and measured before drilling a ball.  But, my PAP location changes depending on how I release the ball.  If I put more axis rotation on a ball, the PAP is farther away more forward roll the PAP gets closer and if I put axis tilt on the ball, my PAP is even closer to the grip center.  I''m not an expert my any stretch, but these are my observations.  If you release your balls the same exact way (axis rotation and tilt) every time, then it matters.  Otherwise, I just can''t see the significance.  Correct me please.  I would really like to finally put this baby to bed.
No matter what release I use (up the back, lots of tilt, lots of axis rotation, etc.), my initial positive axis point never, ever changes.  This is always the same simply because of the way the ball comes off my hand.  The angle my ball is rotating down the lane may change, but it still is rotating around that same spot.  If I take a video camera and mark my PAP with a piece of tape, when I first release the ball, that piece of tape stays stationary for several frames no matter how I roll it, what ball I use, or what the lanes are like.  However, after the first couple of feet, this spot may or may not move based on those factors.  It''ll stay in the same spot all the way down the lane with my plastic ball, but it''ll start to change in a hurry if I''m throwing something that flares a lot.

Now, if I did truly drastic changes to my release, I would imagine this would alter my PAP, but only on especially drastic changes.

(And remember, just because the oil rings move further away from your thumbhole does NOT mean the axis point has changed, it just means you''re using more tilt)

Edited on 11/18/2009 2:35 PM
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: kmanestor22 on November 18, 2009, 02:02:47 PM
quote:
quote:
I really don''t understand all the importance being stressed on PAP.  Most commenters say its imperative to have your PAP determined and measured before drilling a ball.  But, my PAP location changes depending on how I release the ball.  If I put more axis rotation on a ball, the PAP is farther away more forward roll the PAP gets closer and if I put axis tilt on the ball, my PAP is even closer to the grip center.  I''m not an expert my any stretch, but these are my observations.  If you release your balls the same exact way (axis rotation and tilt) every time, then it matters.  Otherwise, I just can''t see the significance.  Correct me please.  I would really like to finally put this baby to bed.
No matter what release I use (up the back, lots of tilt, lots of axis rotation, etc.), my initial positive axis point never, ever changes.  This is always the same simply because of the way the ball comes off my hand.  The angle my ball is rotating down the lane may change, but it still is rotating around that same spot.  If I take a video camera and mark my PAP with a piece of tape, when I first release the ball, that piece of tape stays stationary for several frames no matter how I roll it, what ball I use, or what the lanes are like.  However, after the first couple of feet, this spot may or may not move based on those factors.  It''ll stay in the same spot all the way down the lane with my plastic ball, but it''ll start to change in a hurry if I''m throwing something that flares a lot.

Now, if I did truly drastic changes to my release, I would imagine this would alter my PAP, but only on especially drastic changes.

(And remember, just because the oil rings move further away from your thumbhole does NOT mean the axis point has changed, it just means you''re using more tilt)

Edited on 11/18/2009 2:35 PM


Changing tilt raises/lowers your PAP.
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Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: Dan Belcher on November 18, 2009, 02:25:11 PM
quote:
Changing tilt raises/lowers your PAP.
Not necessarily.  Your ball can still spin around the same exact initial axis, but merely cover a smaller diameter over the ball because it's spinning more like a top rather than rolling.  The initial oil ring can be further away from the thumbhole, but still centered around the same spot.  (It's hard to explain without actually showing it to you with an actual ball, sorry.)
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: JohnP on November 18, 2009, 07:23:15 PM
When a ball rolls its first revolution (and every other revolution, but with a different PAP and NAP as the track flares), it's like there is an axle between the PAP and the spot exactly on the other side of the ball (called the negative axis point, or NAP).  Think of the NAP and the number of concentric circles that can be drawn around that point.  Each circle has the same NAP and PAP, but different diameter, which means different axis tilt.
Dan -- Can you post the slo-mo video of the ball coming off your hand with the PAP stationary, then changing as the ball flares?  Some people don't think it will begin migrating before they pick it up with their eyes, and that would be a great tool to use.  --  JohnP
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: kmanestor22 on November 19, 2009, 06:58:51 AM
I get what you're saying.  When I think of changing tilt, I think of the track moving closer to / further from the fingers/thumb.  What you are saying is you could have the same PAP with a different track diameter.
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Where is the bait?  I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: JohnP on November 19, 2009, 09:16:53 AM
That's right, and axis tilt is strictly dependent on track diameter.  To determine your axis tilt, see the following link:

http://www.buddiesproshop.com/9/Tech_Center.html

First, look at "How to measure track diameter" (this is actually circumferential track diameter because it's measured on the curved surface of the ball).

Then, look at "Asymmetrical layout guide", where you'll find a chart relating track diameter to axis tilt.  --  JohnP
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: batbowler on November 19, 2009, 09:37:09 AM
You can change your axis rotation easier than changing your tilt! Rotation changes with different hand position, but it's very difficult to change tilt and most people can't do this or can't tell if they do it cause it's a very small degree change.
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Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: Dan Belcher on November 19, 2009, 11:25:07 AM
quote:
Dan -- Can you post the slo-mo video of the ball coming off your hand with the PAP stationary, then changing as the ball flares?  Some people don't think it will begin migrating before they pick it up with their eyes, and that would be a great tool to use.  --  JohnP
I've been thinking about going to practice with my camera some day and getting close-up video of specifically this.  I'll have to remember to do that sometime in the next couple of weeks.
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: kingpin268 on November 19, 2009, 01:31:39 PM
My pap changes drastically depending on where my pin is. If my pin is high above my fingers, my track is very low. When my pin is under my fingers, I track fairly high. I strongly believe the track is determined by the height of the pin.


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Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: JohnP on November 20, 2009, 09:49:24 AM
Dan -- If you're going to redo the video, consider this -- start off with a non-flaring ball, then a medium-flaring ball, then a high flaring ball.  We'll be able to see the initial PAP position on all three and how fast the flaring begins.  That will be a great tool.  --  JohnP
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: JohnP on November 20, 2009, 09:52:26 AM
kingpin268 -- If you look carefully I think you''ll find your initial track ring (which determines your PAP location) doesn''t change.  But pin height does determine where the bowtie is located, so later flare rings will be different.  --  JohnP

Edited on 11/20/2009 10:53 AM
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: Dan Belcher on November 20, 2009, 10:05:16 AM
quote:
Dan -- If you're going to redo the video, consider this -- start off with a non-flaring ball, then a medium-flaring ball, then a high flaring ball.  We'll be able to see the initial PAP position on all three and how fast the flaring begins.  That will be a great tool.  --  JohnP
Exactly what I was thinking.  Just need to find the time to get around to it!
Title: Re: my pap changed???
Post by: JohnP on November 20, 2009, 10:08:52 AM
I understand, time's a precious commodity!  --  JohnP