Author Topic: Forward Roll (Read 6276 times)

dR3w · « **on:** November 19, 2007, 06:10:34 AM »

Hi,

In Mo Pinel's drilling terminology I often see the term forward Roll. To me when you have less axis rotation, e.g. the car's tires are driving straight, you have more forward roll. And with more axis rotation, e.g. you are making a sharp left hand turn (right handed bowler). For me this is considered to be off of your hand. As the ball encounters friction, it gives up it's axis rotation, and the car tires start to straighten out toward the pocket.

Now in Mo's dual angle layout technique article ...
http://www.buddiesproshop.com/114/Mo_Pinel_Dual_Angle_Layout_Technique.htm

He states that an Assymetrical ball with a pin to pap distance of closer to 6.25" produces more forward roll, while pin to pap distances closer to 2.75" produce more side roll.

I do not understand this. Is he talking about a ball's transition to facing the pocket and losing axis of rotation, and that one will transition quicker than the other. Does he mean that one drilling is better for people with one initial axis of rotation rather than the other? Does he mean that ball will tend to move to a higher or lower axis of rotation as it moves down the lane? Or something different?

Also why is there large track flare for a wide variety of pin to pap positions for an assymetrical ball, but not as much for a symetrical ball? According to his notes for an assymetrical ball, you get large track flare for pin to pap distances of 2.75 to 6.25 but for a symmetrical ball it is from 3 to 4 inches.

Thanks,

dR3w
--------------------
dR3w

"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything I thought it could be. "

shelley · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2007, 02:45:09 PM »

quote:
Also why is there large track flare for a wide variety of pin to pap positions for an assymetrical ball, but not as much for a symetrical ball? According to his notes for an assymetrical ball, you get large track flare for pin to pap distances of 2.75 to 6.25 but for a symmetrical ball it is from 3 to 4 inches.

I believe it has to do with the migration of the PSA to a stable position, just like the pin does. Because of this extra migration, you get additional flare. On a symmetric cored ball, the mass bias is not as strong and does not influence the track migration as much.

The old Track drill sheets for the Phenom and Freak lines mentioned that pin positions past 3 3/8" produce similar amounts of flare.

SH

chitown · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2007, 07:03:24 PM »

I'm a little confused by this as well. If I want the most back end movement I place the pin further from my pap. I have done this with asymmetrical equipment and still experienced a huge back end move from furhter pin to pap placements.

Can someone explain this in more detail?

dR3w · « **Reply #3 on:** November 26, 2007, 09:49:05 AM »

Bump ... anyone?
--------------------
dR3w

"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything I thought it could be. "

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #4 on:** November 26, 2007, 11:33:04 AM »

I think Shelley had it right (I think, I'm not 100% sure). It sounds like with a strong asymmetrical ball, if you use a longer pin to PAP distance, it's going to result in more flare, and the ball will want to make a sharper move and straighten out, while a shorter pin to PAP will make the ball transition slower and have more of an arc. Does that make sense?

REvans284 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 26, 2007, 08:19:00 PM »

quote:
I think Shelley had it right (I think, I'm not 100% sure). It sounds like with a strong asymmetrical ball, if you use a longer pin to PAP distance, it's going to result in more flare, and the ball will want to make a sharper move and straighten out, while a shorter pin to PAP will make the ball transition slower and have more of an arc. Does that make sense?

The closer the Pin to PAP the sooner the ball will try and read the lanes, this typically makes the ball lose energy as it goes down the lane thus it wont have enough stored to make a hard pop. When you drill the ball with a pin farther from the PAP it delays the reaction (of the ball trying to read the lanes) thus storing more energy and when it hits the friction it unleashes it harder. (correct me if I am wrong please, but this is how I thought it worked).

But there are alot of other factors that need to be taken into consideration too. (Surface, X whole, MB position if the ball has a strong enough one to make a difference) because they effect the shape of the balls reaction alot too.

Later,

REvans284

Edited on 11/26/2007 9:22 PM

chitown · « **Reply #6 on:** November 26, 2007, 10:00:59 PM »

I think it all has to do with the amount of flare. When I use pins further from my pap like 5.5" (pin above my bridge) it's easier to get a less axis rotation roll on the ball. For me it's because the longer pin to pap layouts produce less flare and the flare rings are closer to each other.

If I were to use a stronger pin placement it is harder to get a less axis rotation roll because the ball is more imbalanced from the pin position and produces more flare and the flare rings are further apart from each other.

I think this is the reason.

charlest · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2007, 01:34:47 AM »

quote:
quote:
I think Shelley had it right (I think, I'm not 100% sure). It sounds like with a strong asymmetrical ball, if you use a longer pin to PAP distance, it's going to result in more flare, and the ball will want to make a sharper move and straighten out, while a shorter pin to PAP will make the ball transition slower and have more of an arc. Does that make sense?

The closer the Pin to PAP the sooner the ball will try and read the lanes, this typically makes the ball lose energy as it goes down the lane thus it wont have enough stored to make a hard pop. When you drill the ball with a pin farther from the PAP it delays the reaction (of the ball trying to read the lanes) thus storing more energy and when it hits the friction it unleashes it harder. (correct me if I am wrong please, but this is how I thought it worked)....
Later,

REvans284

This is true for symmetric cored balls; NOT true for asymmetric/mass bias balls. Please re-read the original post for asymmetric cores or read the Track Flare section of this webpage: https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ

dR3w · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2007, 07:15:30 PM »

This is what I was emailed from MoRich.com

Hi Drew,

Thanks for taking the time to visit our web site and for the question!

Your answer is basically in your first question. He is speaking of the ball's transition to facing the pocket. With the pin further away, the core is more up right and and the change of direction is more forward rolling as the ball transitions through the hook and roll phases.

Bowlers that have higher rev rates and and increased axis rotation usually benefit more with the pins further away from the axis point because of the control factor they exhibit as they transition.

Hope this helped.
--------------------
dR3w

"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything I thought it could be. "

Author Topic: Forward Roll (Read 6276 times)

dR3w

Forward Roll

shelley

Re: Forward Roll

chitown

Re: Forward Roll

dR3w

Re: Forward Roll

Dan Belcher

Re: Forward Roll

REvans284

Re: Forward Roll

chitown

Re: Forward Roll

charlest

Re: Forward Roll

dR3w

Re: Forward Roll