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Author Topic: Negative pin layout  (Read 7578 times)

Asura

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Negative pin layout
« on: February 19, 2008, 09:32:29 PM »
Hi all, just like to know if anyone can explain the ball reaction or show a link for negative pin layout.

Especially if the layout is negative pin with the MB/CG position around 1" right of grip center.

Thanks
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JohnP

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2008, 10:27:21 AM »
What pin to PAP distance do you consider negative?  --  JohnP
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azus

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2008, 02:25:52 PM »
A pin-pap dist that is longer than 6 3/4" is negative right? The ball will flare wierd, going outside in rather than inside out.
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Goof1073

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2008, 03:09:51 PM »
Most folks think of "negative" as the pin being located beyond your grip's centerline toward you track.  The Pin to PAP distance can widely vary depending on the bowler but in general I would say that the distance is anything over 5" from a generalized PAP (again rule of thumb).
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Asura

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2008, 03:25:25 PM »
quote:
A pin-pap dist that is longer than 6 3/4" is negative right? The ball will flare wierd, going outside in rather than inside out.
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Yes, I mean the Pin being more than 6 3/4" from PAP. Will the ball still hook to the pocket when it hits the friction/dry part of the lane? If so, how strong will the the reaction be? I'm considering both Pin above and under fingers with more than 6 3/4" from PAP.


Edited on 2/20/2008 4:26 PM
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bowlingnut2008

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2008, 03:42:57 PM »
This link talks about negative vs positive cg placement, if it helps...

http://www.bowl.com/articleView.aspx?i=13354&f=21




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Edited on 2/20/2008 4:43 PM
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Joe Jr

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2008, 03:57:56 PM »
I believe you run the risk of reversing the flare when you place the pin that far away.
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tenpinspro

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 04:33:56 PM »
quote:
What pin to PAP distance do you consider negative?  --  JohnP


John P has stated this correctly....it really isn't a negative placement by definition because the weight block is still in the center of the ball, agree?

The top of the block is however in the finger/negative quadrant which allows for a much delayed reaction.  Dry(friction area) is still dry.....only thing to be careful of is not to clip your gripping holes but we can also adjust some with a weight hole (maybe).

This placement works well for high tilt and/or strong axis rotating players. Hope this helps some...
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Mike E

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2008, 04:47:56 PM »
Asura- What you are asking about sounds like a typical full roller layout to me.Take a look at drilling instructions for full rollers on the Roto- Grip website and see if that is what you mean. Have your proshop measure your track before you drill a ball like this. I use them and for me it does make me track between fingers and thumb.This might not be the case for you (hence the track measurement suggestion). It makes most balls hook early and hook a ton(talking about the 7:30 pin placement). I also have 90 degree axis rotation. For me it's a good drill if I'm swinging the ball(coast to coast).You gotta like that sort of thing.

                             Hope this helps,
                             Mike E
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strikealot

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2008, 04:56:39 PM »
no, full roller drill has pin left and below the thumb...i believe he means above fingers and left of center line...
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don coyote

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2008, 05:02:12 PM »
I have a AMBUSH with the pin above the MIDDLE finger, and the BIAS to the right of the thumb. With this drilling the ball KILLS on toast lanes and spotty carrydown. On oil it does go too long. The ball with this drilling is also good on over/under shots. I am a righty.
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Mike E

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2008, 05:17:09 PM »
quote:
no, full roller drill has pin left and below the thumb...i believe he means above fingers and left of center line...
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Full Roller also has pin at 9:00 oclock and pin at 10:30 which is why  i suggested the Roto Website.
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Maine Man

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2008, 05:18:41 PM »
quote:
This link talks about negative vs positive cg placement, if it helps...

http://www.bowl.com/articleView.aspx?i=13354&f=21




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Edited on 2/20/2008 4:43 PM


Here we go again!!!

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JohnP

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2008, 10:38:39 AM »
quote:
Yes, I mean the Pin being more than 6 3/4" from PAP. Will the ball still hook to the pocket when it hits the friction/dry part of the lane? If so, how strong will the the reaction be? I'm considering both Pin above and under fingers with more than 6 3/4" from PAP.


I am going to be talking drilling theory here, I have never drilled a ball with a pin to PAP of over 5 1/2".  When you go past 6 3/4", the flare potential is dictated by the pin to NAP (negative axis point) distance, with 3 3/8", or 10 1/8" pin to PAP, being the maximum flare.  But the flare is going to be reversed and for a 3/4 roller the ball will most likely hit the thumb hole.  Most drillers consider anything over 6" pin to PAP "no man's land", since with relatively small errors in release the PAP can move enough to reverse the flare.  By the way, depending on the PAP location 6 3/4" pin to PAP can be anywhere from about above the middle finger to 3" left of the grip centerline.  For a low tracker, pin positions to the left of the centerline can be quite strong.  --  JohnP
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mrbowlingnut

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Re: Negative pin layout
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2008, 11:23:56 AM »
I track 5 3/8 over and 3/8 up i have an action drilled left of middle finger, the ball goes about 50 feet and makes a dead left turn. Cg is right in grip center kind of the drilling Barnes used to use with older Columbia stuff but mine has no low weight hole.  

The pin to pap has to be at least 7 inches i have not exactly ever bothered to measure it.
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