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Author Topic: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball  (Read 4057 times)

duvallite

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PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« on: September 11, 2006, 10:36:11 AM »
Is there a difference between using a plastic ball and a higher flaring ball to find your PAP, and also would the readings be the same?  In anticipation of buying a Mean Machine on-line with drilling included, I had my PAP measured today for the first time, and the pro shop guy had me throw several shots using my Phenom Unleashed (I don't have a plastic ball) which he had marked with tape.  After watching, tweaking the tape, and measuring, he said my PAP was 4 1/2 over & 1/4 up.  He said he usually preferred to use a plastic ball to locate the PAP, and when I asked if there would be a difference in the obtained measurements, he said he would not be surprised if my PAP would be somewhere around 5 - 5  1/2 over and about 1/2 up if we had used a plastic ball.  If this is correct, how can I accurately tell the on-line shop what my PAP is so that I get the drill pattern performance that I want?  

Also, for what it's worth, all three of the balls that I use were bought used, and I kept the same drill pattern that was on them and just had the holes plugged and drilled to fit me.  So I really have no idea how the drill patterns measure out, and just how strong or weak they actually are.
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kmanestor22

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2006, 10:39:45 PM »
If you are using the plastic for spares, aren't you releasing it flatter than your strike ball?  If so, it makes no sense to use plastic for your PAP because that isn't your normal release.
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J_Mac

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2006, 10:50:27 PM »
quote:
If you are using the plastic for spares, aren't you releasing it flatter than your strike ball?  If so, it makes no sense to use plastic for your PAP because that isn't your normal release.

If he did flatten his release for spares he'd hardly have a need for a plastic ball.  I have a spare ball because I choose not to adjust my wrist outside of it's "normal" range of motion/adjustment.

When a bowler flattens their wrist they are changing the axis rotation, not their PAP.

My PAP is the same on every ball I throw. (as verified with a piece of tape)On my spare ball that piece of tape stays in the same spot much longer though.  On some of the strong MB balls I have it moves off spot very quickly.

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shelley

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2006, 10:57:34 PM »
You can measure your PAP with a high-flaring ball but you need a release that's got very little to no loft in it.  Not many people release the ball that close to the ground, though, which is why low-flaring balls are usually used to find your PAP.  Higher-flaring balls can actually flare in the air, and since the ball is hard to follow there, you can get a less accurate reading of where your PAP is.

SH
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kmanestor22

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2006, 11:23:31 PM »
If changing your release doesn't change your PAP, then wouldn't everyone have the same PAP?
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duvallite

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2006, 01:07:27 AM »
No, I don't have a plastic spare ball.  I do flatten my wrist to make certain spare shots.  But to get back to my original point of the initial post, will I be ok in telling the the shop that I plan on buying my ball from that my PAP is 4 1/2 over & 1/4 up, even though this measurement was obtained using my Phenom Unleashed and using my regular release?

Also, is that PAP measurement kind of unusual?  I thought most people were over about 5+ inches?
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kmanestor22

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2006, 02:03:41 AM »
I have seen many people with their PAP less than 5" away.  There are other way to verify your PAP findings.  The AMF Armadillo is one way if any shops around your area have it.  It is a clear plastic device theey place over your ball.  They then line up the lines on the Armadillo to match your track.  Otherwise, they can trace your track with grease pencil, flip it upside-down on the ball spinner, and find the point equal distance from your track.  It is not the most accurate way, but it can verify if they are close.
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shelley

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2006, 09:19:04 AM »
quote:
Also, is that PAP measurement kind of unusual?  I thought most people were over about 5+ inches?


No.  It's a medium track, and there are plenty of bowlers who track like that.  I think tracks are getting higher and higher, you used to see a lot of low-track spinners (a la Tom Baker, Brad Angelo, and Ryan Shafer) but not so much anymore.  Higher tracks can get more out of fewer revs (because more of the ball is in contact with the lane) and tend to be smooth out the reaction more than lower tracks (which usually lose all that axis tilt at once creating a lot of backend).  My PAP is over 6" and I track pretty much at the finger and thumb holes.

SH
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duvallite

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2006, 10:36:31 AM »
Thanks for the info.  Sounds like I'm ordering a ball.
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J_Mac

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2006, 11:08:26 PM »
quote:
If changing your release doesn't change your PAP, then wouldn't everyone have the same PAP?
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Where is the bait?  I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer


Only if everyone had the same hand size, mechanics, and flexibility...

You have to make a very significant change to your release to get you PAP to move enough to really matter.
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice."  Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
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backswing_aplenty

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2006, 01:48:18 AM »
The only reason to use your plastic ball to find your PAP is that it's easier to locate the first oil line.  Many times that line is almost impossible to see becasue of color combinations, pearl coverstocks, or oiler coverstocks that absorb the oil.  A plastic ball with your normal release creates the easiest line to measure off of.

Your PAP is based on your body's kinesiology(sp.), which is the science behind way the body moves.  Everyone's skeletal and muscle structure dictates the way they release the ball.  The human body is suprisingly repeatable from person to person which gives the common 5" over PAP, but individual releases dictate the shorter PAP distances as well as longer and vertical distances, a la Tom Baker's 'spinner' release 3 1/2" PAP, Walter Ray's extreme forward roll 6+" PAP, and what ever the hell Michael Fagan does to get about a 3" PAP.

Your PAP may change from ball to ball depending on how well each ball fits.  Maybe a 1/4" at most.  I go from 5" over and 1/2" up to only 5" over because some of my thumbs are taped slightly different.  Many will claim that the PAP should never change which is true, it shouldn't , but a slightly different fit may alter the release that little bit, giving variances.

Now that you know your PAP go buy a ton of equipment and experiment!

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wulfpackbwlr

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Re: PAP question - plastic vs. high flare ball
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2006, 01:52:37 PM »
I know that I personally have started lofting the ball a good bit more than I used to.  Since I started this my track on all my high/ mid performance equipment is lower than it used to be.  Though that may be true, just to check to see if my release itself had changed I threw my spare ball and it had the same ol' track right beside the fingers and thumb.  With the increase in loft, the track has dropped as my equipment is undoubtedly flaring in the air.  Would be incorrect to take my PAP off of an aggressive ball as it would be a good amount off.
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