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Author Topic: New span and thumb pitches..  (Read 10239 times)

jkiser01

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New span and thumb pitches..
« on: February 18, 2012, 07:53:18 AM »
I have been having issues with hanging onto 5 or 6 shots every league night in of course all the wrong times (10th frame on 3 in a row) so I decided it was time for a change. I have short fingers and a not so flexible thumb. My span was 4 and 4 1/6 and I was at 0 and 1/8 reverse. I am now 4 1/16 and 4 1/8  with 1/4 away and 0. I only had 1 ball re-slugged with these new specs but so far the ball seems to come off my hand much better and I can even pick up 10 pins with my strike ball much easier that I could before with the hanging up issues. I of course have a spare ball for that but it was nice picking 10's up with my regular ball.
 
Anyone else have any luck with these similar pitches?


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Edited by jkiser01 on 2/18/2012 at 4:54 PM
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Russell

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 08:47:46 PM »
Remember pitches and spans are unique to each individuals hand.  I am 4 and 1/4" total span and have 1/8" forward in my thumb....pretty low grip pressure so I don't hang up...but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.
 
It's great to see you have success with a change, I can imagine that not getting your thumb out clean can be maddening.  Good luck!


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Mike Austin

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 11:02:33 PM »
My spans are 4 1/2 on both fingers and I now use 1/4 forward and 1/8 left.  May try a little more forward, my thumb holes are snug, but I am able to use very little grip pressure.  Without seeing your hand, I would say zero and 1/4 left lateral should get you out of the ball plenty quickly, ultimately, you have to use what works for you.

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jkiser01

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 05:27:28 AM »
Thanks for the comments. I was considering some forward pitch along with the left lateral but gonna try this set up for now.

My first child.. Hannah Allison Kiser 4 years old and my little angel!!

DV8-Damn good bowling balls!!

I also like AMF/900 Global..
Radical Bowling Technologies ...Its more than just an Attitude!

Russell

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 08:41:36 AM »
I'm with Mike....you have 2 options when hanging up in the ball.  Go forward and make yourself relax, or go more away and make it to where the gripping doesn't matter.  Both options work, but again not for everyone.


Little known fact:  In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Neptune66

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 10:05:36 AM »
My driller had closed his location in the alley where I bowl most often, so had some balls drilled by his successor last year.  They were close but not identical drilling (span was slightly shorter and pitch in middle finger different), so this year went back to original driller (at his less convenient other location), and had all the balls from the successor "corrected".
 
Unfortunately, in correcting the finger/span, have noticed my thumb-hole seems much tighter and have had to have that opened up. Not quite sure why this is, as the balls that were not touched (have original drilling) have not needed the thumb opened up.
 
Sorry for being a bit off topic, but was wondering if a change in span should affect the size of the thumb-hole needed (maybe I'm not QUITE at original drilling with the corrected balls)?
 

LuckyLefty

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 11:33:29 AM »
You never mentioned your "coke" bottle test to deterimine your natural lateral pitch?

 

Regards,

 

Luckylefty


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JustRico

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 12:53:40 PM »
honestly the coke bottle test is possibly only one facet, as it does not show how the person will let go of the ball, merely a static angle. Gripping the ball generally is either too long of a span or too much reverse...if these pitches are working and I applaud you for only changing one ball and trying, stay with em....time will tell how your hand adapts...listen to your hand.


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dmonroe814

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 01:51:02 PM »
 I agree with the other posters about the span and pitch being unique to each bowler.  I used to have a streched span and had a 5/8 reverse pitch.  My current driller has relaxed my span a bit and I have been able to go to 1/2 reverse with no ill effeccts.

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LuckyLefty

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 02:05:18 PM »
JustRico,

 

I understand  that a coke bottle test seems to have more relavancy in relation to a pretty standard old time full span.  However how does it's relavance stand in relation to statements that one should go to 1/4 lateral out span?

 

Without knowing the coke bottle or pencil pick up test for lateral pitch tendancy?

 

Or are you saying lateral pitch has no relavance?

 

Regards,

 

Luckylefty


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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

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jkiser01

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 02:30:00 PM »
I did my right hand around my left wrist test and it shows my thumb pointing at my middle finger. This means lateral or away pitch would be suggested.

My first child.. Hannah Allison Kiser 4 years old and my little angel!!

DV8-Damn good bowling balls!!

I also like AMF/900 Global..
Radical Bowling Technologies ...Its more than just an Attitude!

LuckyLefty

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 07:19:02 AM »
In looking at my BIll Taylor book and also this link....

 


 

Mo pinel and Bill Taylor believe middle finger is 1/8 under palm lateral or RIGHT for a righty.

 

The current politically correct movement is lateral out. 

 

Regards,

 

Luckylefty


It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

JustRico

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 09:33:17 AM »
In today's environment....lateral pitch is very relevant. Looking at a book that was written in 1974 and the only one that has been written in terms of the grip does not make it the holy grail. It means it is the only staple there is.

Lateral pitch basically dictates the direction the ball will come off the bowler's hand at release, it can and does effect how much rotation is necessitated through the release. Before resin the bowling balls were needed to be released at an angle where the ball was fed into the lane from a right to left manner as the pre-resin bowling balls were to be kept more on line. In today's environment, the angle of the thumb has become more advanced where the span is multi-facitated. It is not only used for release compancy, today's release being more of a left to right as well as more at the bottom of the swing and not on the upsweep, along with for comfort to allow the hand to be in a more natural state or position. Pro shop operators have to be more competant in matching the angles to the bowler's hand..it is not as simple as a coke or pencil test. How a person holds a bowling ball in a static position has less to do with how they swing it while carrying it in the approach. The angle of the thumb hole & span are relevant so that the bowling ball stays on the bowler's hand, without necessitating gripping or squeezing and releases due to gravity pulling it off and not needing to be thrown off. A lot has changed in 40 years....


The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
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JustRico

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 09:35:45 AM »
and honestly I have NO idea what is politically correct about a bowling ball fit properly....the hand dictates what the hand dictates....if you lay your hand down flat on a table top with the palm up.....show me how comfortable it appears to have the thumb being forced towards the palm.....sorry but it is not as simple as you want to make it.


The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
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LuckyLefty

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Re: New span and thumb pitches..
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 10:30:29 AM »
Being a fairly good golfer for over 40 years, and absolute tennis watching lover(grips have moved to dramatically more western over the last 10 years), and a modest observer of bowlers over 10 years I have watched political correctness in many sports as the theories evolve etc over time.

 

When I first started golfing in the 60s teachers were teaching a 3 knuckle grip(which correlates to a lot of lateral under thumb for most bowlers in bowling).  Then in the 70s they started teaching a 1 knuckle grip to reduce hooking for the top flite golfer.  Now golfers in the majority have settled back to around a 2 1/2 knuckle grip.

 

Each grip in golf led to a different arm motion in relation to the ball that resulted in a certain ball flight.  Also the different grips led to different amounts of forearm rotation depending on the amount of curve wanted.  Weaker grips to hit a draw in golf needed to introduce a tremendous amount of forearm rotation to hit a draw(ala Johnny Miller).  Stronger grips could still hit a draw with very little forearm rotation.  (ala Paul Azinger or Lee Trevino when they wanted a draw)

 

I hope that it is understood that I have read Bill Taylor's book, talked to Bill Taylor in person, and watched a lot of good bowlers, and bowlerw who used to be good bowlers.  I state my opinion mostly  based My "observation" of watching bowlers and concluding after watching a lot of them. is that much like golf each person has a natural anatomy of where sort of THEIR neutral lateral pitch setting is.  Where some people have trouble hooking a ball with lateral out pitch(me I coke bottle to my ring finger almost).  Others have no trouble hooking with lateral out 1/4.  (They coke bottle near or above their index finger). 

 

I often watch the arm motion in relation to the ball right after release and believe that often new style bowlers with lateral pitches less than their anatomy (coke bottle test) often move their hand right after release slightly inside their line and then back outside to the right.  Other old style bowlers often move their arm dramatically outside their line I believe if they are using old style or more like 3/8 or 1/2 lateral under pitches and a lot of reverse.

 

In person I have been amazed always at watching the lefty Tish Johnson swing her arm out to the left gutter so strongly and yet hook it quite strongly.  I never got a chance to talk to her about her pitches or look at her ball but I would be quite amazed to find that she had anything but a dramatic lateral under pitch in relation to her coke bottle test.

 

Obviously I only being a non professional driller have seen fewer hands than our experts out here and will defer to their feedback on these ideas.  It is my observation that many more hands call for lateral under than lateral out(would I say 80/20 as far as percentages...maybe).

 

Obviously sports have their politically correct changes over time as teaching trends change back and forth with new equipment etc.  Sometimes these changes do not benefit the average player.  In golf 1 knuckle grips left many players in the 70s with hopeless slices.  Fortunately the game has come back to matching more the golfers natural anatamy in recommending grip strength(ie abiltiy to rotate the club back to square).

 

In bowling I have observed some...quite a few very good bowlers decide to go lateral out with coke bottle tests near 1/4 under and end up with lack of rotation to play in, and sore elbows, and shoulders.  Some of them have even bowled better on certain sport shots when squaring up and decided it was the way to go.  I also aware that a shorter than traditional full span or semi span allows one to use pitches different from a coke bottle test and leaning more towards lateral out to prevent one from topping or coming over the ball from the shorter span.

This is analgous in golf to what Johnny Miller did to establish such strong rotation in his forearms where he relaxed his front elbow and arm to add dramatic forearm rotation to propel his club to slightly closed when he wanted a hook this while gripping the club in a much weaker 1 knuckle grip position.  The relaxed front arm was his way of supplying rotation from a grip that weaker and was mostly designed to hit a high towering slight fade!

 

From these observations I occassionally get asked by players way better than I am if I see anything to change.

I have been gratified that one of the best players in Florida has improved his game by going more reverse and more lateral under(in line with his coke bottle test)  and resulted in him raise his league averages up about 17 pins in the last 3 years and to also increase his number of 300 and 800s per year by a factor of about 8!  When I met him he already had many sport titles and continues to be extremely proficient in this area.

 

I am also gratified to have helped a friend of mine who's lateral under position thumb damage was atrocious that he made changes over the past two years and has gone from 1/8 under to 3/16 out and setting his leagues on fire to the tune of about 15 pins increase per game.  There are thumbs like that lateral out no doubt!  I am not against them if appropriate for the hand and if the arm motion through the ball bears out the lateral position.

 

I dont' believe most of these observations are a result of Bill Taylor's 1974 book but I may be just a parrot...

 

Regards,

 

Luckylefty

PS my favorite method I have heard about on this site is Jim Ensminger's change method between league and sport where he goes lateral under and reverse for open league shots to laterals nearer 0 and less reverse for constricted area sport patterns.  Smart!

PPS I really hope that my comments here could help establish dialogue about Tish Johnson's pitches, and also more from Just Rico about the views on Lateral pitch from the tour and his experience in seeing many many many more hands than I do as a home based guy...


It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana