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I have been having issues with hanging onto 5 or 6 shots every league night in of course all the wrong times (10th frame on 3 in a row) so I decided it was time for a change. I have short fingers and a not so flexible thumb. My span was 4 and 4 1/6 and I was at 0 and 1/8 reverse. I am now 4 1/16 and 4 1/8 with 1/4 away and 0. I only had 1 ball re-slugged with these new specs but so far the ball seems to come off my hand much better and I can even pick up 10 pins with my strike ball much easier that I could before with the hanging up issues. I of course have a spare ball for that but it was nice picking 10's up with my regular ball.
Anyone else have any luck with these similar pitches?
My first child.. Hannah Allison Kiser 4 years old and my little angel!!
DV8-Damn good bowling balls!!
I also like AMF/900 Global..
Edited by jkiser01 on 2/18/2012 at 4:54 PM
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Remember pitches and spans are unique to each individuals hand. I am 4 and 1/4" total span and have 1/8" forward in my thumb....pretty low grip pressure so I don't hang up...but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.
It's great to see you have success with a change, I can imagine that not getting your thumb out clean can be maddening. Good luck!
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
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My spans are 4 1/2 on both fingers and I now use 1/4 forward and 1/8 left. May try a little more forward, my thumb holes are snug, but I am able to use very little grip pressure. Without seeing your hand, I would say zero and 1/4 left lateral should get you out of the ball plenty quickly, ultimately, you have to use what works for you.
Mike Austin's Bowling Dynamix Pro Shop
Houston, TX
Coming Soon: BowlingDynamix.com
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Thanks for the comments. I was considering some forward pitch along with the left lateral but gonna try this set up for now.
My first child.. Hannah Allison Kiser 4 years old and my little angel!!
DV8-Damn good bowling balls!!
I also like AMF/900 Global..
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I'm with Mike....you have 2 options when hanging up in the ball. Go forward and make yourself relax, or go more away and make it to where the gripping doesn't matter. Both options work, but again not for everyone.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
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My driller had closed his location in the alley where I bowl most often, so had some balls drilled by his successor last year. They were close but not identical drilling (span was slightly shorter and pitch in middle finger different), so this year went back to original driller (at his less convenient other location), and had all the balls from the successor "corrected".
Unfortunately, in correcting the finger/span, have noticed my thumb-hole seems much tighter and have had to have that opened up. Not quite sure why this is, as the balls that were not touched (have original drilling) have not needed the thumb opened up.
Sorry for being a bit off topic, but was wondering if a change in span should affect the size of the thumb-hole needed (maybe I'm not QUITE at original drilling with the corrected balls)?
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You never mentioned your "coke" bottle test to deterimine your natural lateral pitch?
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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honestly the coke bottle test is possibly only one facet, as it does not show how the person will let go of the ball, merely a static angle. Gripping the ball generally is either too long of a span or too much reverse...if these pitches are working and I applaud you for only changing one ball and trying, stay with em....time will tell how your hand adapts...listen to your hand.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
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I agree with the other posters about the span and pitch being unique to each bowler. I used to have a streched span and had a 5/8 reverse pitch. My current driller has relaxed my span a bit and I have been able to go to 1/2 reverse with no ill effeccts.
Old Man Still Learning300x4 800x3 (High 814x2)Hi Avg 218 Cur Ave 214Tweener-Cranker (14Mph 350Revs)Heavy: Storm VG Nano 4000AB Pol / C300 World Beater PolMedium: C300 Outburst Pol / C300 Game PearlLight: C300 Scout Reactive / Brunswich Avalanche Pearl
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JustRico,
I understand that a coke bottle test seems to have more relavancy in relation to a pretty standard old time full span. However how does it's relavance stand in relation to statements that one should go to 1/4 lateral out span?
Without knowing the coke bottle or pencil pick up test for lateral pitch tendancy?
Or are you saying lateral pitch has no relavance?
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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I did my right hand around my left wrist test and it shows my thumb pointing at my middle finger. This means lateral or away pitch would be suggested.
My first child.. Hannah Allison Kiser 4 years old and my little angel!!
DV8-Damn good bowling balls!!
I also like AMF/900 Global..
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In looking at my BIll Taylor book and also this link....
Mo pinel and Bill Taylor believe middle finger is 1/8 under palm lateral or RIGHT for a righty.
The current politically correct movement is lateral out.
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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In today's environment....lateral pitch is very relevant. Looking at a book that was written in 1974 and the only one that has been written in terms of the grip does not make it the holy grail. It means it is the only staple there is.
Lateral pitch basically dictates the direction the ball will come off the bowler's hand at release, it can and does effect how much rotation is necessitated through the release. Before resin the bowling balls were needed to be released at an angle where the ball was fed into the lane from a right to left manner as the pre-resin bowling balls were to be kept more on line. In today's environment, the angle of the thumb has become more advanced where the span is multi-facitated. It is not only used for release compancy, today's release being more of a left to right as well as more at the bottom of the swing and not on the upsweep, along with for comfort to allow the hand to be in a more natural state or position. Pro shop operators have to be more competant in matching the angles to the bowler's hand..it is not as simple as a coke or pencil test. How a person holds a bowling ball in a static position has less to do with how they swing it while carrying it in the approach. The angle of the thumb hole & span are relevant so that the bowling ball stays on the bowler's hand, without necessitating gripping or squeezing and releases due to gravity pulling it off and not needing to be thrown off. A lot has changed in 40 years....
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
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and honestly I have NO idea what is politically correct about a bowling ball fit properly....the hand dictates what the hand dictates....if you lay your hand down flat on a table top with the palm up.....show me how comfortable it appears to have the thumb being forced towards the palm.....sorry but it is not as simple as you want to make it.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
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Being a fairly good golfer for over 40 years, and absolute tennis watching lover(grips have moved to dramatically more western over the last 10 years), and a modest observer of bowlers over 10 years I have watched political correctness in many sports as the theories evolve etc over time.
When I first started golfing in the 60s teachers were teaching a 3 knuckle grip(which correlates to a lot of lateral under thumb for most bowlers in bowling). Then in the 70s they started teaching a 1 knuckle grip to reduce hooking for the top flite golfer. Now golfers in the majority have settled back to around a 2 1/2 knuckle grip.
Each grip in golf led to a different arm motion in relation to the ball that resulted in a certain ball flight. Also the different grips led to different amounts of forearm rotation depending on the amount of curve wanted. Weaker grips to hit a draw in golf needed to introduce a tremendous amount of forearm rotation to hit a draw(ala Johnny Miller). Stronger grips could still hit a draw with very little forearm rotation. (ala Paul Azinger or Lee Trevino when they wanted a draw)
I hope that it is understood that I have read Bill Taylor's book, talked to Bill Taylor in person, and watched a lot of good bowlers, and bowlerw who used to be good bowlers. I state my opinion mostly based My "observation" of watching bowlers and concluding after watching a lot of them. is that much like golf each person has a natural anatomy of where sort of THEIR neutral lateral pitch setting is. Where some people have trouble hooking a ball with lateral out pitch(me I coke bottle to my ring finger almost). Others have no trouble hooking with lateral out 1/4. (They coke bottle near or above their index finger).
I often watch the arm motion in relation to the ball right after release and believe that often new style bowlers with lateral pitches less than their anatomy (coke bottle test) often move their hand right after release slightly inside their line and then back outside to the right. Other old style bowlers often move their arm dramatically outside their line I believe if they are using old style or more like 3/8 or 1/2 lateral under pitches and a lot of reverse.
In person I have been amazed always at watching the lefty Tish Johnson swing her arm out to the left gutter so strongly and yet hook it quite strongly. I never got a chance to talk to her about her pitches or look at her ball but I would be quite amazed to find that she had anything but a dramatic lateral under pitch in relation to her coke bottle test.
Obviously I only being a non professional driller have seen fewer hands than our experts out here and will defer to their feedback on these ideas. It is my observation that many more hands call for lateral under than lateral out(would I say 80/20 as far as percentages...maybe).
Obviously sports have their politically correct changes over time as teaching trends change back and forth with new equipment etc. Sometimes these changes do not benefit the average player. In golf 1 knuckle grips left many players in the 70s with hopeless slices. Fortunately the game has come back to matching more the golfers natural anatamy in recommending grip strength(ie abiltiy to rotate the club back to square).
In bowling I have observed some...quite a few very good bowlers decide to go lateral out with coke bottle tests near 1/4 under and end up with lack of rotation to play in, and sore elbows, and shoulders. Some of them have even bowled better on certain sport shots when squaring up and decided it was the way to go. I also aware that a shorter than traditional full span or semi span allows one to use pitches different from a coke bottle test and leaning more towards lateral out to prevent one from topping or coming over the ball from the shorter span.
This is analgous in golf to what Johnny Miller did to establish such strong rotation in his forearms where he relaxed his front elbow and arm to add dramatic forearm rotation to propel his club to slightly closed when he wanted a hook this while gripping the club in a much weaker 1 knuckle grip position. The relaxed front arm was his way of supplying rotation from a grip that weaker and was mostly designed to hit a high towering slight fade!
From these observations I occassionally get asked by players way better than I am if I see anything to change.
I have been gratified that one of the best players in Florida has improved his game by going more reverse and more lateral under(in line with his coke bottle test) and resulted in him raise his league averages up about 17 pins in the last 3 years and to also increase his number of 300 and 800s per year by a factor of about 8! When I met him he already had many sport titles and continues to be extremely proficient in this area.
I am also gratified to have helped a friend of mine who's lateral under position thumb damage was atrocious that he made changes over the past two years and has gone from 1/8 under to 3/16 out and setting his leagues on fire to the tune of about 15 pins increase per game. There are thumbs like that lateral out no doubt! I am not against them if appropriate for the hand and if the arm motion through the ball bears out the lateral position.
I dont' believe most of these observations are a result of Bill Taylor's 1974 book but I may be just a parrot...
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS my favorite method I have heard about on this site is Jim Ensminger's change method between league and sport where he goes lateral under and reverse for open league shots to laterals nearer 0 and less reverse for constricted area sport patterns. Smart!
PPS I really hope that my comments here could help establish dialogue about Tish Johnson's pitches, and also more from Just Rico about the views on Lateral pitch from the tour and his experience in seeing many many many more hands than I do as a home based guy...
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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A. many of the touring pros have very neutral angles in their thumbs to allow versatility
B. Tish has away pitch and always has...and I've known her since we about 16
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
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Have you taken a good look at how people release the ball these days. They release it in all different FUBAR types of ways. The suitcase book of 1974 is only a starting point if that anymore.
As Rick said, the pitch for your hand not only is dictated by the physical aspects of your hand but also how you naturally hold/swing and release the bowling ball.
And we all know there are a zillion ways people release a bowling ball, proper or improper.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/20/2012 at 12:03 PM
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Just Rico,
I am surprised on Tish Johnson but my friend who very appropriately uses away pitch also moves his arm out towards the gutter also.
I wonder what her coke bottle says..
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS Just...would you say that many of the pros you are observing with these neutral set of pitches are short of the old style Full Span?
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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XXX,
So your guideline given your starting point that everyone out there is throwing FUBAR is ????
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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Just to add to this I (along with 2 others) am in the process of writing a book in regards to today's game and fitting plus drillings....it addresses all of this as well as more.
You have commented that what we are seeing or using in today's fitting as politically correct is more of a correction of older theories. You can compare to other sports but, quite simply put, when you are carrying an object weighing up to 16lbs and applying a force that can create 3-4 G's where the object is now between 48-60lbs....fitting is to be used for a static as well as dynamic fit. As stated before you are fitting a bowler for what their hand may dictate as well as what their body dictates along with how a person swings the bowling ball. You want to keep going back to the coke bottle test...quite honestly there are so many more variables than simply or merely that. Much more than can be touched on here....and you can call it lateral in or out....it is an angle pure and simple and every bowler has a zero angle that accomodates their hand & span.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
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Ah....the answers are in the book. I sincerely look forward to it as I have found this conversation fascinating but with few real answers. I do understand why....
Again....I do watch the arm through the ball and ball roll, compare pitches in ball and coke bottle test and flexibility.
I do not claim to be a pro driller or have fixed many games. Have been lucky with a few top level players dramatically improving with little tweaks and they give me credit. Just lucky probably,,,,I'm that way...
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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not sure what questions haven't been answered
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
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The guideline is to fit the bowler in whatever "theory" you wish to fit, because there are many theories on how to fit people. I'm not going to get into that because I'm not running for president! There are a few ways to get to the same result, and there are some ways that do not get you to the proper result. I'm not going to get into that.
Than you make changes to how the person holds, swings and releases the ball.
Like I said we all know people throw the ball a bowling ball in a wide range of ways. Some of them are FUBAR but effective. The days of everybody suit casing the ball with some tug is over. A bible written in 1974 really isn't a bible any longer.
The coke bottle test and the other charts are good to get you started, but its always good to know that with some bowlers these charts are not going to work because of how they choose to play the game. You then need to adjust what is "proper" to accommodate their own game. Your not looking for proper book fit, but proper bowler fit instead.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/20/2012 at 12:39 PM
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XXX,
Suitcasing?
Just..
.I'm sure in your book you will have many more concrete suggestions to match fit with armswing, span, hand etc....
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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Fitting is real world, not by a book from 1974. Bill Taylor was a genius and did wonders for the game in his time. That was many years ago. The game has changed, people have changed in physical sizes, shapes and skill sets. Thus some things have to be done differently, within the same general principal that Taylor laid out.
I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand?
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For instance I have a "coke" bottle measurement. Everytime I use it, I end up having my thumb go numb and it causes a dead feeling with some pain that runs from my thumb to my shoulder. The grip feels great, the results after the release, not so great.
The way I release the ball, does not correspond to the book fit. Now as a pro shop guy, would you just keep telling the bowler to deal with it, because it's correct or would you get down to the root of the problem and fit the ball correctly for the bowlers release?
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Suit casing, or what some people may call a "hard hand" is a release that was very popular in the 70's and an easy one to learn. Think of holding a suit case and then releasing it, with your fingers closing making a fist. This is a hard hand, that went right to left. Many bowlers today use a soft hand, that goes left to right. It's a totally different principle than what was being rolled in the 70's. We can all agree that the release of the bowler has changed over the years, thus principles on fitting need to change too when it comes to the timing and release points of the fingers/thumb.
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LL,
Do you really go up to every good bowler in your area and ask them 20 questions about their fit and pitches and how their coke bottle test went? Isn't that a little overly anal? Heck, most of the people I know, including the top bowlers, couldn't even tell you if they had forward or reverse in their thumb. They may have had similar tests done some time in the past, but the pro shop guy kept track of that and any subsequent changes, not the bowler himself.
Telling it like it is.
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2 comments....
1 If you force a bowler into an extreme amount of palm pitch you can or will force a bowler's hand into a suitcase easier due to the weight of the ball being shifted in that direction through the bowler's swing
s For me to go over every type of situation in bowler's span & fits well I would need to write a book....
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
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Ummm,
Wow,,,
XXX you sound great and like a professional driller. As to pain,,,I've never ended up with a bowler having it after applying Bill Taylor rules(Including Coke bottle test), Mo Pinel bevel tips(very important), and watching release and thumb wear and ball roll and making slight tweaks off above.
Someone on watching everyones pitch and grip....I like watching the very best, the very worst in all form sports in general. To me it is interesting why people are very good and very bad, fun. For you it would be anal!
I also watch those who ask me and say...things like..."it hurts", "it hangs up", "I can't turn it", and "Would you help me?". Usually they get better.
Just Rico, on details and what you are going to explain. It sounds like many of the details will be in your book. I'm convinced it will have in it....ie lateral pitch....when a specific case is discussed it will say more than...."it's just another angle". That is why you are writing a "Book", to expand on that idea...I am sure. I do look forward to it because it has been a long time since Bill Taylor wrote his classic. I was fortunate to meet him several years ago while he expanded on the ideas in that book personally. I have also been flattered to discuss with Mo Pinel many of his ideas on fit.
To me it is a fascinating subject and I liked some of the discussions above on hard hand, soft hand, etc. That was informative and enjoyable....Thanks.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I just looked at some of the pictures and graphs in Bill Taylors book and I saw many different release positions discussed, put in photos, and then illustrated in his pictures of ball, fingers and tracks. Way back in 1974 he sure seemed to discuss a lot more than the classic what I used to call "Suitcase" which I remember a teeny bit as what we also call 90 degree axis rotation or I think as Bill Taylor called 3 O'clock.
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
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I am not a professional driller. I have drilled bowling balls for many years but I do not know everything there is to know about ball drilling and the dynamics behind a bowling ball. I mostly drill for myself now.
I do know by watching thousands of people throw bowling balls, their releases are all different and they need many different types of angles to release the ball properly for the way they bowl. It's simply common sense when you see a person release an object. Different people will all have a different type of release point, thus they will have a fit that benefits this point and does not hinder it or cause problems.
Now how do you figure all of these things out, that is where the master fitter and drillers come in. Rick would be in that master category.
I think of a span, pitches and the way a bowlers physical game as if it was a finger print. No two will ever be the same.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/20/2012 at 4:40 PM
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XXX, I mostly agree with you. I see good releases that are different, but similar in that the thumb gets out quickly and then the fingers release second. I also see a lot of funky releases that all look like they are releasing nearly at the same time, thumb and fingers, and they all have some variation of thumb hang!
I'm curious as to the adjustments you make for maybe one of those different handprints you see?
Just,
I agree with XXX and I am convinced that there is a strong chance you are a master driller. I also understand that you are not giving any details here because of your upcoming book. Who would want to give away secrets like that for free when they can when they can charge for them in a detail giving book?
Of course I'm sure a book like that will not say regarding different releases as the final description, "it depends".
I await and eagerly look forward to learning more. Up till now I had thought that Bill Taylor, Mo Pinel, and Bull Red on this site had the lock down on great drilling ideas with regard to drill fit. I have been impressed with the hints of knowledge to come and eagerly await.
Thank you, new knowledge excites me.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS when do you think the relase date will be approximately?
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana