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Author Topic: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus  (Read 4682 times)

Nodsleinad

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Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« on: February 15, 2007, 01:04:56 AM »
I had posted a question a week ago about RG and its potential to migrate in direct proportion to linear movements away from PAP.  Basically a ball is at Low RG when the pin is placed directly on the PAP.  Likewise the ball is at High RG when placed 6.75 away from PAP (1/4 the ball diameter).  Now based on the balls differential, linear movements migrate the RG from lowest to highest, the higher the differential the less it has to move to change the RG Plane.  For example a ball with .060 differential will need to be 1.125 away from PAP to change the RG plane.   A ball with a .030 differential would need to be moved 2.25 to change that plane.

Now the question is this.  If RG changes proportionally based on linear movements away from PAP does Flare (Differential) do the same?  It has been stated by several persons and bowling layout gurus that a pin on PAP is supposed to flare 0 inches or very little.  It has also been stated that a pin placed 6.75 away is also supposed to flare 0 or very little.  A pin at leverage is supposed to reach it full flare potential.  A ball with .060 differential may reach 4-6 inches of flare and ball with .030 may only reach 2-3 inches perhaps.   No for our consideration, let’s move the pin further away from leverage for a .060 differential ball.  I will move it 1.125 away further from pap.  Have I reduced the flare potential by 1/3, 4.5 is 1/3 the distance from leverage to 6.75?  It seems that it would but some state it will mot do so because a linear movement of the pin will not correlate proportionally to linear movements as the RG.

Let’s hear your thoughts on this matter and thanks - Nod

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Nodsleinad

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2007, 10:44:32 AM »
So if flare is basically the same no matter where the pin is placed such as in your case.  The only advantage to moving the pin would be to manipulate when that flare occurs.  Early, late etc
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Edited on 2/21/2007 12:45 PM
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Nodsleinad

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2007, 11:40:19 AM »
For me it matters none if it is shiny or dull... the differential creates flare.  My Total NV is shiny and flares more than a Dull Danger Zone by far.

Nod
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Edited on 2/15/2007 12:38 PM
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Coast2Coast

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2007, 05:29:45 PM »
Somebody with a high rev rate like Robert Smith or Tommy Jones will have a noticable difference 1/2" differences. Where as when somebody with a lower rev rate like Walter Ray won't notice anything really different with the same 1/2" difference. That is why Walter Ray doesn't mess with drilling as much as surface.

pinbuffer

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2007, 06:44:04 PM »
quote:
For me it matters none if it is shiny or dull... the differential creates flare.  My Total NV is shiny and flares more than a Dull Danger Zone by far.



I think according to http://www.columbia300.com/innovation/techdocs.cfm?id=5 that someone at Columbia, er Ebonite , agrees with you. But then, I'm in a rush and might have missed the original point of this thread.

Nodsleinad

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2007, 09:33:07 AM »
quote:
quote:
For me it matters none if it is shiny or dull... the differential creates flare. My Total NV is shiny and flares more than a Dull Danger Zone by far.


This doesn't mean that it won't affect the flare of your bowling ball. When talking about flare potentials and the difference in a dull and a polished ball, do not compare different balls. That's like apples and oranges.

Go to a heavily oiled shot, Throw your total NV at a 1000 grit with say 2 coats of Brunswick high Gloss gritless polish 4 sides. Than throw it at a 1000 grit dull. Or even use it at 4000 grit and than at 500 grit. Even though it may flare more than the Danger Zone, that would be created by the core and the motion you impart on the ball.

But using that same energy on the same ball with a different surface prep, to my knowledge, will result in a change of flare. This would be because the ball is seeing different amounts of friction. When a ball see's more friction it is going to start to make it's turn earlier, when compared to the same ball at a higher grit. Even though the RG and Differential is the same, the amount of friction the ball is seeing throughout the lane changes.

Differential itself doesn't actually "create" flare. Flare is created by the leverage you impart on the bowling ball. The energy you transfer to the bowling ball allows the "pieces" of the ball to go from static to dynamic. Once a ball is rotating and using energy that has been transferred from you, RG differential is a factor on a ball's flare "Potential". It doesn't actually "Create" flare. But it is a factor in determining how much a ball can flare.

I'm going to side track here for a second and move on to deadbait's post. Depending on your PAP deadbait, those two layouts could actually have a fairly similar track flare potential. If you were to try a ball at 0 inches from PAP, and the same ball at 3 3/8 inches Pin-Pap distance,  guarantee you see a difference in flair, and especially where the ball begins to flare.

To your original question.

I'm not quite sure I understand how it is worded but i will do my best interpreting it and giving you an answer to the best of my abilities. I am not Mo Pinel, hehe.

Let's go step by step here as o how I see what you are asking.

A ball has different flare potentials based on different pin lengths to the PAP because of the core's stability, or instability for that matter. A ball with a pin at 0inches to PAP or 6 3/4 should flare very little to none because the core is stable throughout it's roll down the lane, assuming ofcourse you release it correctly.

Now the same ball with the pin 3 3/8 inches to PAP should reach full flare potential because that should be maximum instability for the ball.

From what I get out of your question you are asking if a ball with a pin distance of 3 3/8 to pap, will that flare 1/3 more than a ball that is 4.5 to pap.
And you are asking this because you flare potential is different, but because when moving the pin you change the RG and how long the ball will tend to go before it rolls up, does this necessarily change the flare potential of the ball?

I would think that the flare potential would remain the same because the Pin distance from PAP still dictates the core's stability or lack thereof which is what creates flare. But I would tend to think that the distance on the lane where the ball begins to "rev-up" would change because the RG has changed. i still think that the flare potential remains the same, regardless of the RG change because the core's amount of stability should remain the same. That's just my reasoning, I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts about this topic.

Edited on 2/20/2007 10:22 AM


Then if moving the pin does not affect flare amounts then why move the pin at all.  Only to migrate the distance the full flare is created?  

Nod
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RSalas

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2007, 09:35:43 AM »
I can't speak for everyone on this board, but for me, I'd be doing my game a much better service by spending an hour practicing my spare shooting than spending an hour thinking about how RGs change as pin-to-PAP distances change.

But that's just me.
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Nodsleinad

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2007, 09:37:25 AM »
quote:
I can't speak for everyone on this board, but for me, I'd be doing my game a much better service by spending an hour practicing my spare shooting than spending an hour thinking about how RGs change as pin-to-PAP distances change.

But that's just me.
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...formerly "The Curse of Dusty," and "Poöter Boöf" before that...


Bracket creep you arent me.... Nod   Wink..... ;-)
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RSalas

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2007, 09:43:09 AM »
quote:
Bracket creep you arent me.... Nod   Wink..... ;-)


Well, you probably shoot spares much better than I do.  
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Nodsleinad

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2007, 10:10:57 AM »
quote:
I was saying I think the pin movement was still the determining factor of flare, because that is what changes the core's instability, not the change in Rg as you move the pin.


I think both flare potential and RG are changed by moving the pin.  My question was...." Are they both proportional to linear movements?"

The reason ( for bracket creep ) to research this is to attempt to move the pin enough to reduce the flare enough to allow one to use better more versatile balls for lighter conditions.

Nod

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Edited on 2/20/2007 11:12 AM
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pinbuffer

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2007, 10:28:06 AM »
quote:
I would think that the flare potential would remain the same because the Pin distance from PAP still dictates the core's stability or lack thereof which is what creates flare. But I would tend to think that the distance on the lane where the ball begins to "rev-up" would change because the RG has changed. i still think that the flare potential remains the same, regardless of the RG change because the core's amount of stability should remain the same. That's just my reasoning, I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts about this topic.


Differential is the potential of the ball to flare. Pin position defines how much of the flare you get. 3 3/8" gives you the maximum potential of flare. 0" and 6 3/4" gives you the least. If you move the pin in 1 1/8" increments from 0" to 3 3/8" or from 6 3/4" to 3 3/8" you effectively add 1/3 of the flare potential to the total flare you have.

I would argue that pin height, in relation to the midline, and cover prep only delay or shorten the time it takes for the ball to reach its maximum flare potential, which would be different for each bowler based on release style.

Edit: Uneditted my edit.

Edited on 2/20/2007 11:33 AM

Edited on 2/20/2007 11:37 AM

pinbuffer

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2007, 10:39:05 AM »
Aha, I knew there was an article I read to back up my linear movement arguement: http://www.ebonite.com/techcenter/pinposdynreact.php. See paragraph #3.

Nodsleinad

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2007, 01:11:06 PM »
quote:
http://Differential is the potential of the ball to flare. Pin position defines how much of the flare you get. 3 3/8" gives you the maximum potential of flare. 0" and 6 3/4" gives you the least.

That is what I had said...


I spoke with a ball rep and they stated that is is not proportional with linear movements as i have read before and most of you have stated as well.

Nod
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sammy the sage

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Re: Ok-Here is a brain cramper for all drilling / layout Gurus
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2007, 05:23:22 AM »
a lot of this is total MYTH...the weightblock shape can change everything!

for example...have 2 balls drilled pin in track...ie..6 3/4..

my normal track is about 1.5-2 in.'s of finger/thumb....

w/above mentioned drilling.

no mercy...tracks right next to finger/thumb...as expected and very tame...very long w/a slight pop on dry/clean back ends...excellent for fresh tourney shots...

WHILE...my inf. one tracks 3 to 4 in.'s away from the hole's...and eat's up pba shark (44ft.) like a house pattern...very strong and lot's of flare.

Have experimented w/many balls and you never know which reaction you're gonna get?

have had other people throw my equip....some track over the holes...as might be expected...and yet again...some tracks lowered.

this really apply's to MB balls mind you.

just my 2 cents.

also shows there ARE EXCEPTIONS TO EVERY RULE!