Author Topic: questions about the DUAL ANGLE method (Read 5410 times)

FrontTwelv · « **on:** December 28, 2008, 09:29:03 AM »

I have been drilling for about 10 years now, and have been incorporating the single angle method since 1999. I understand the idea but a couple of mo's ideas in his DA (Dual Angle) method do not make sense. OK, so the first angle (angle b/w the line from pin-through-cg to the line that the PAP falls on) I have down, at least I thought. I was under assumption if the closer you make that angle to 45 degrees the stronger the ball gets. The closer to 0 (not to be less than 20 for most bowlers) the 'arch-y'er it is. And the closer you get back to 90 it gets archy again.
According to MO, 20 is archy and 90 is angular and very aggressive. Is this interpretation correct?
The 2nd angle has me puzzled. So i guess my first question is which angle am i measuring? Is it the angle b/w the line that the PAP is on and the VAL? According to Mo's drawings it is. The smaller the angle (not to be less than 30 degrees) the quicker change of direction. But when you make the angle small, the higher the pin becomes when mapping back to center of grip. don't higher pin placements make the ball go longer b4 reacting? and the opposite, the larger that angle (not to exceed 60 degrees) the slower change in direction, putting the pin lower. which in my mind, and in real world testing, lower pin placements make the ball start up sooner.

i feel I am not reading into this, or measuring the wrong angles. A little help please.
--------------------
Drew Jordan
Columbus, OH
Ebonite | Brunswick

the pooh · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2008, 05:55:30 PM »

When deciding the val angle,keep in mind that in using the lower degrees(like 20*),you still have to maintain your chosen pin to pap distance.So when you lay a ball out with,say ,a 20* val angle,it is down towards the val and WAY up.In other words,it is usually nowhere near the bridge.It will be way off to the right.To do these layouts requires a long pin ball to keep the statics in a good area,otherwise the cg could end up at or above the fingers!I have done several,of these and they do give max backend and a very quick transition..On the other hand,a high degree val angle(like 70*)will most likely end up in the bridge or under the fingers and usually needs a short pin ball to keep the statics in the ballpark.These do give a much longer and smooth transition.

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the pooh

the pooh · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2008, 06:11:10 PM »

Also,the limits on the val angle are 20* to 70*.20 being the quickest transition and 70 being the slowest.The limits on the drill angle are 10* and 90*.10* rolls the soonest and 90* goes the longest.Hope this helps!

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the pooh

chitown · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2008, 07:32:51 PM »

Pooch explains it well but it is different than normal layouts.

I was trying to understand the same thing a few days ago. Look on the MoRich forum for my post on this subject.

Normally pin below the fingers does cause a bll to get into it's roll a tad earlier. Normally longer pin to pap distances create bigger backend reactions. My favorite layout that has giving me awesome backend reaction has been pin above the bridge 5.5" from pap. However, when it comes to MoRich bowling balls this idea has to be thrown out. From my understanding for a real strong backend reaction it's best to keep the pin close to the VAL which places the pin high and right of the ring(right hander). This goes against the normal way of doing things.

I would love to drill up an Ntense LEVRG with a pin above the bridge 5.5" from pap layout and MB in the strong position just to see how it compares to having the pin real close the the VAL.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 28, 2008, 08:02:33 PM »

FrontTwelv,

Try this link and see if it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq8SG1rqdCw
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #5 on:** December 28, 2008, 10:19:26 PM »

quote:
The smaller the angle (not to be less than 30 degrees) the quicker change of direction. But when you make the angle small, the higher the pin becomes when mapping back to center of grip. don't higher pin placements make the ball go longer b4 reacting?

The first angle will determine how soon or late the ball gets into a roll.
The second angle (along with surface) will determine how the ball responds to friction.
The pin to pap distance will determine the flare potential.

--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

batbowler · « **Reply #6 on:** December 28, 2008, 10:48:35 PM »

Keep in mind that the 30deg angle is the combined, drill angle and val angle. That would be a 10deg drill angle and a 20deg val angle and that would be a early reving ball, which would make it more archy or hook stop. The higher the numbers the later the ball goes into a roll and the lower the numbers the earlier it goes into a roll. High rev player normally use the higher number and lower rev players use lower numbers and you have to factor in if the player is high or low ball speed and rev rate. If the player matches their ball speed and rev rate then you use the middle range of numbers between the 30deg and 160deg or determine what reaction they are wanting. Just my $.02, Bruce
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"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL UP A STORM AND BE KING OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it."

Lillen · « **Reply #7 on:** December 28, 2008, 11:12:53 PM »

quote:
FrontTwelv,

Try this link and see if it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq8SG1rqdCw
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Thanks for the link, made it a bit easier too understand..

--------------------
www.eko-bowling.se
www.teamtuba.se
http://shop.teamtuba.se/
www.dteracing.se

JohnP · « **Reply #8 on:** December 29, 2008, 09:43:27 AM »

quote:
I have been drilling for about 10 years now, and have been incorporating the single angle method since 1999. I understand the idea but a couple of mo's ideas in his DA (Dual Angle) method do not make sense. OK, so the first angle (angle b/w the line from pin-through-cg to the line that the PAP falls on) I have down, at least I thought.

Remember that Mo's theories deal mainly with asymmetric balls, so forget the cg. Your first line should be from the pin through the mb, which may or may not go through the cg. I know how to use his dual angle theory, but I've only drilled a few balls using it. I did use it on a Red Zone for myself, applying my delivery characteristics to his descriptions to choose the two angles. For a 5 1/2" pin to PAP the pin came out under the MF - which I would never have chosen otherwise. The ball does exactly what I wanted it to do. -- JohnP

FrontTwelv · « **Reply #9 on:** December 29, 2008, 03:18:46 PM »

quote:
When deciding the val angle,keep in mind that in using the lower degrees(like 20*),you still have to maintain your chosen pin to pap distance.
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the pooh

of course, without a doubt...

quote:
To do these layouts requires a long pin ball to keep the statics in a good area,otherwise the cg could end up at or above the fingers!I have done several,of these and they do give max backend and a very quick transition.
------------
the pooh

I was thinking this too, like 5" pins. So you have some sort of real world experience, using same ball and same MB angles? great, thats what i was looking for.

quote:
The first angle will determine how soon or late the ball gets into a roll.
The second angle (along with surface) will determine how the ball responds to friction.
The pin to pap distance will determine the flare potential.
--------------
bluerrpilot

the smaller the 1st angle (closer to VAL) the sooner the ball responds?
--------------------
Drew Jordan
Columbus, OH
Ebonite | Brunswick

Edited on 12/29/2008 4:19 PM

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #10 on:** December 29, 2008, 07:42:04 PM »

quote:

the smaller the 1st angle (closer to VAL) the sooner the ball responds?

Yes, smaller DRILLING ANGLES roll sooner. But it has nothing to do with how close it is to your VAL. The second angle ANGLE TO VAL is what puts the pin closer or farther from VAL
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

Edited on 12/29/2008 8:42 PM

FrontTwelv · « **Reply #11 on:** December 30, 2008, 12:59:14 PM »

quote:
Yes, smaller DRILLING ANGLES roll sooner. But it has nothing to do with how close it is to your VAL. The second angle ANGLE TO VAL is what puts the pin closer or farther from VAL

ok, so to produce a ball with strong midlane characteristics, you want that 1st angle to be low, and if that 2nd angle is low too, it will really boom through the midlanes? the 2nd angle being close to 30* will cause that pin to be close to the VAL??
--------------------
Drew Jordan
Columbus, OH
Ebonite | Brunswick

Jay · « **Reply #12 on:** December 30, 2008, 08:06:22 PM »

Correct, FrontTwelv.

I started using this system around the end of last season as a way to learn how to lay out my own stuff. I had a really good idea of how the system worked but I think I made a bad choice with the first ball I did it on. Anyways, the one thing that has had me confused lately is flare in general, so choosing a pin to PAP distance has been a buit challenging. I know what distances flare how much, but their effects on the lane are a bit difficult for me to grasp.

Anyways, one thing I just picked up on recently. Not only does a smaller VAL angle mean smaller pin buffers, but the pin buffer seems to change when the pin to PAP distance changes, even if the angle to the VAL stays the same. For instance, an angle to the VAL of 40 is going to produce a pin buffer considerably smaller with a pin distance of 3 inches compared to 5 inches.

Xcessive_Evil · « **Reply #13 on:** December 31, 2008, 08:42:27 AM »

I too was extremely confused about DA layouts when I first started reading up on it.

The first angle will dictate MB location

Pin distance dictates flare potential

The second angle dictates pin position/distance to VAL.

I actually drew out alot of different layouts and eventually went with a 50* 5.5 35* on my Rising and loved the results-even though I'm a hi-rev player and assumed I needed higher angles. However, I now somehow throw around 19 mph so maybe that offsets it.
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Does it really matter?

Author Topic: questions about the DUAL ANGLE method (Read 5410 times)

FrontTwelv

questions about the DUAL ANGLE method

the pooh

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the pooh

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chitown

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Brickguy221

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bluerrpilot

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batbowler

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Lillen

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JohnP

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FrontTwelv

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bluerrpilot

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FrontTwelv

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Jay

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Xcessive_Evil

Re: questions about the DUAL ANGLE method