Author Topic: PAP (Read 7184 times)

Stever5000 · « **on:** February 19, 2010, 01:52:37 PM »

I had a few guys check for my PAP and they were all kinda puzzled about it, so I'm trying to get a little more info about it. Bear with me, because I'm still learning the technicalities. By the way, I am right handed.

My PAP was marked at 3" over and 1.5" up. Those are not the EXACT coordinates, but are pretty close. I will take a picture of the actual marking tomorrow when I get a chance. Anyway, apparently that's a weird spot for it to be? I just don't know why it's weird, and we don't have anyone halfway experienced enough to teach me why it is in a weird location, if it really is.

Any help will be much appreciated.

the pooh · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2010, 11:41:38 PM »

The average over coordinate is around 5".3" is quite short, but possible. If your track diameter is small(say 10" or less) you are"spinning" the ball, kind of like a top. If your track diameter is 10.5" or greater, you have a great release, not unlike pro bowler Mike Fagan. As an example, mine is 4 3/4" over and 3/8" up. Also, it is important to measure your pap with a non dynamic,low flaring ball with a pancake type core,as this will indicate your true INITIAL pap off your hand, before the core starts the migration. Performance balls can and will flare quite differently. Use the tape and plastic ball method, it is the most accurate.

Another way to find your pap is:
--------------------http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZHgCZSUKA
the pooh

Edited on 2/20/2010 0:50 AM

Edited on 2/20/2010 0:51 AM

Lillen · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2010, 12:00:03 AM »

Sorry if I hijack your thread but if you use an Aramdillo to find your PAP, is it a must to use the lines on the Armadillo or can you use the space between two lines to match up with the first oil ring if none of the two lines is an "exact" match?
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www.dteracing.se
http://www.festis.se/orange.html

John D Davis · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2010, 01:59:25 AM »

Steven... Its not that weired to have that kinda PAP. My PAP is strange as well. I think I am currently 4" over and 5/8" up. I used to be more towards 3 1/2" over but somehow I managed to get to 4" over time. Everyone has their on unique ball roll. You just have to be carefull and layout balls a cirtain way to maximize our ball roll. Great layouts for us are pin above or below the middle fingers... Stacked layouts with the Pin right of ring tend to roll very straight for us.

If you have balls laid out with the pin right of ring and they roll better than a ball pin up or pin down than you dont have the right PAP location. I hope this helps, John

the pooh · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2010, 06:21:14 AM »

Lillen: The space is fine.

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the pooh

Stever5000 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2010, 09:32:21 AM »

Balls with the Pin right of the ring finger never work for me, but the pro shop guys always said it was because I was releasing it wrong and that it was layed out for "max hook" or whatever. I've noticed through a couple experiments that I match up much better using equipment layed out for lefties rather than righties, just because of the pin being around the mid finger isntead of the ring finger. We don't have any pro shop operators around here that know anything about drilling pin-to-pap or any other techniques other than pin above the bridge or copying a layout from the form included with the ball.

quote:
Steven... Its not that weired to have that kinda PAP. My PAP is strange as well. I think I am currently 4" over and 5/8" up. I used to be more towards 3 1/2" over but somehow I managed to get to 4" over time. Everyone has their on unique ball roll. You just have to be carefull and layout balls a cirtain way to maximize our ball roll. Great layouts for us are pin above or below the middle fingers... Stacked layouts with the Pin right of ring tend to roll very straight for us.

If you have balls laid out with the pin right of ring and they roll better than a ball pin up or pin down than you dont have the right PAP location. I hope this helps, John

sunsetlefty · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2010, 10:35:03 AM »

Stever5000,

Layouts that look like they are 'lefty' layouts work good for you because the pin ends up in a stronger position for a low tracker. Low trackers can use pin layouts up and between the fingers, and even over the middle finger. This creates a distance roughly 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 inches from your shorter PAP. Pin distances in this range are considered strong pin placements.

A few months ago I did a ball layout for a girl with a PAP of 2 3/4 over by 5/8 up. She releases the ball very well, but 'twirls' her hand at release. She stated that she had never been able to get much ball reaction. I drilled a Mutant Cell with a layout that looked just like a lefty layout, and she hooks it a ton. I also explained to her that, if someone looked at the ball, they would swear that it was laid out incorrectly.

Layouts should be based on PAP, and not how they look (such as pin near ring finger, etc.)
--------------------
Owner of X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
www.myideallanes.com
Rotogrip Star Pro Shop Member
Ebonite International Gold Pro Shop Member
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Lillen · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2010, 12:22:49 PM »

quote:
Lillen: The space is fine.
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the pooh

Pooh, Thanks for your reply..

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www.psbowling.se/
www.dteracing.se
http://www.festis.se/orange.html

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:36:12 AM »

Sounds like you have a spinner release, with a very small track circumference. 3" over is IMHO extreme - I have seen PAPs in the 4" range, but your release must be some kind of helicopter release, almost topping the ball and sending it spinning and sliding down the lane!?
Yeah, a strong layout for this PAP would propably have the pin above the middle finger, or even on the negative side of the ball - looking like a lefty ball!

I once had a used TPC Shooter. Span was O.k. and I kept the drilling, but I always wondered about the layout - the pin was under the middle finger and the CG/MB at about 45Â°. For me with a high track a rather mild, arcing layout - but for a low tracker something in the stacked leverage range!
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DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany

Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

Stever5000 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2010, 01:00:43 PM »

quote:
Sounds like you have a spinner release, with a very small track circumference. 3" over is IMHO extreme - I have seen PAPs in the 4" range, but your release must be some kind of helicopter release, almost topping the ball and sending it spinning and sliding down the lane!?
Yeah, a strong layout for this PAP would propably have the pin above the middle finger, or even on the negative side of the ball - looking like a lefty ball!

I once had a used TPC Shooter. Span was O.k. and I kept the drilling, but I always wondered about the layout - the pin was under the middle finger and the CG/MB at about 45Â°. For me with a high track a rather mild, arcing layout - but for a low tracker something in the stacked leverage range!
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany

Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

Well, I don't really think I "spin" the ball like a top, really. Good news is, I just bought a very nice camcorder so I can cap some video possibly tonight and we can get a clear idea of what's going on. I do appreciate the help, everyone. I'd love to have a better understanding of my game.

JohnP · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:21:38 PM »

A low track does not necessarily mean a spinner, which is high axis tilt. I neasured a customer today with a PAP of 3 7/8" over and on the midline. His axis tilt was 10*, definitely not a spinner. We've gotten into the habit of equating low track with spinner, and that simply does not always hold true. Checking axis tilt is the only way to determine if someone is spinning the ball (although you can get a pretty good idea from the release, but NOT from the PAP only). -- JohnP

Stever5000 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2010, 12:40:43 AM »

Videos are up and running. I tried to do my best to capture my release point at the best of my ability. I did use the slow-motion setting for some of the videos, which I do believe will be helpful in this situation. Anyway, I hope this helps!

Videos are linked on this thread
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=254588&ForumID=92&CategoryID=5

pocketsmasher51582 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2010, 01:27:42 AM »

Well you definately dont spin the ball like a top but I am sure the ball feels like its a top with all those Revs. WOW. Sorry to hijack the thread but damn dude. I wish i had the revs you do. I am a cranker myself but nowhere near the revs you have. Hope you can figure out whats wrong with the PAP situation.

Again sorry for hijacking your post.
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- Joe
http://BeansProShop.com

Motogp69 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2010, 08:59:53 AM »

I responded to the forum with your videos.
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Videos at:
http://youtube.com/user/Gsnap21

"The framers of our Constitution believed that if the people were to be sovereign and belong to different religions at the same time then our official religion would have to be no religion at all. It was a bold experiment then as it is now. It wasn't meant to make us comfortable, it was meant to make us free."

JohnP · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2010, 10:13:25 AM »

Definitely NOT a spinner. Your PAP location may be correct, don't worry about that. Ask your driller to measure your axis tilt, I'm guessing it's 10 - 17* with about 25 - 35* of axis rotation. You release the ball like a lot of the pro's, just need to work on repeating shots. -- JohnP

Author Topic: PAP (Read 7184 times)

Stever5000

PAP

the pooh

Re: PAP

Lillen

Re: PAP

John D Davis

Re: PAP

the pooh

Re: PAP

Stever5000

Re: PAP

sunsetlefty

Re: PAP

Lillen

Re: PAP

dizzyfugu

Re: PAP

Stever5000

Re: PAP

JohnP

Re: PAP

Stever5000

Re: PAP

pocketsmasher51582

Re: PAP

Motogp69

Re: PAP

JohnP

Re: PAP