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Author Topic: Forward from WHAT?  (Read 2832 times)

LuckyLefty

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Forward from WHAT?
« on: June 01, 2005, 04:32:11 PM »
I sent this little bit in a note to the Nollster.

I believe grips forward of the tables to solve a problem are just fine or to accomodate for a short thumb, dropping shots etc is very acceptable.

Here is the little blurb I sent him.

Note the Bill Taylor forward reverse tables look like this.

4 inch span = 1/8 forward thumb pitch
4 1/4 inch span = 0 forward reverse
4 1/2 = 1/8 reverse
4 5/8 = 3/16 reverse
5 inch = 3/8 reverse
5 1/2 inches = 5/8 reverse.

Now some thoughts.  It is my imression that many top amateurs and professional are slightly forward of these tables at this time.

Forward is neither good nor bad it just a dividing line from forward and reverse from Bill's book.

Just as in golf there is like a mean or average grip say 2 1/2 knuckles.
And most other grips coagulate around this midpoint.

Grips such as 1 knuckle and 4 knuckles are outliers! Strange.

OF course grip strength relates more to Lateral thumb pitch in bowling(ability to put side turn is affected by lateral pitch).

BUT just as in grips for golf grips for bowling revolve around midpoints also.

Let's say an average midpoint for lateral pitch is 1/8 right for righties.

Also for forward reverse an average midpoint for forward reverse is 63 degrees.

That is right the holding power is average at 63 degrees.

63 degfrees is an angle that is formed by a straight line drawn thru the ball from front lip of finger holes to front lip of thumb hole. The angle is then measured between this line and the line which is the front of the thumb hole.

Bill Taylor found out that whether a conventional, semi or fingertip grip this angle worked for almost every one in giving a nice compromise between holding power and the ability of the thumb to release before the fingers.

This means that a person with a 6 inch span their 63 degree thumb is 7/8 reverse. A person with a 4 1/4 inch span their 63 degree thumb angle is 0 and a person with a 3 1/2 inch span has a 63 degree thumb angle of 7/16 forward.

When I see people act as though 0 is the midpoint or that forward = good and reverse = bad I find it humorous.

All references should be to the standard 63 degree angle.

ie "my thumb is 1/8 forward of the 63 degeree table".

OR my thumb is 1/8 reverse in comparison to the 63 degree table and I have a 4 1/2 inch span.
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stanski

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Re: Forward from WHAT?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2005, 12:50:03 AM »
I'm either 1/8 or 1/16 forward of what I should be according to the tables. Knowing somewhat more about fitting, I worried that I didn't have quite enough forward. I didn't bother to take the time to go to jayhawks site, as it didn't bother me too much, but thanks for posting the information. I'm glad that I'm actually forward of the tables.

All info on my thumb and grip are in the profile.
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Brickguy221

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Re: Forward from WHAT?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2005, 12:54:48 AM »
Depends what finger a person goes by. Going my middle finger (4 1/4) I should have 0 F/R pitch and if going by the RF (4 3/8) I should have 1/16 reverse. I have on the border line, a long and wet thumb. I use 1/8 reverse.

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LuckyLefty

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Re: Forward from WHAT?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2005, 08:55:17 AM »
Use middle finger span for forward reverse.  Then set ring finger based on Bill Taylor fingerlength difference test.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS being forward or reverse of tables is not GOOD or BAD.  It depends on flexibility of thumb and release desired.
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JohnP

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Re: Forward from WHAT?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2005, 10:37:17 AM »
quote:
I'm glad that I'm actually forward of the tables.


stanski -- Why?  The tables, as LL has told us over and over, are just a starting point.  We (posters to this Forum, not ball drillers) are putting entirely too much emphasis on the tables, and especially on being forward from what the tables say.  Be glad that you've found a pitch and hole size combination that allows a free swing and smooth, non-squeezing release, and don't worry about how that combination compares to the tables!  --  JohnP
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Forward from WHAT?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2005, 11:46:31 PM »
Agreed.  Using the guidlines as a starting point and as a full fingertip these tables are a great starting point.

If one is more relaxed than a full span naturally more forward will help hold on to the ball.

Another way of looking at it is if I am at a 4 5/8 span and using 3/16 reverse and then all of a sudden I put in 1/8 forward I notice now that this 4 5/8 span now goes from full to stretched.

Ie forward pitch beyond the tables in a very relaxed or short span can take up the slack and reestablish holding power!

In addition again one must realize forward from 0 is not good or bad and actually means nothing.

What means something is where you are in relation to this 63 degree table.
REmember one mans 1/4 reverse(say a 5 1/2 inch span) may have much more holding power than your 1/8 forward(say a 3 7/8 span).

The longer span fellows reverse is ACTUALLY more forward from the tables and theoretically should have a later thumb release.

More importantly the eye of a good ball driller should be able to SEE if your release timing derived from your grip is correct.  And then make the proper adjustments.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS then we add the additional variable of how stretched or full is your span as above!
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Tweener92

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Re: Forward from WHAT?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2005, 01:28:55 PM »
BOB,
What were the results of your switch? When I tell drillers that I am 1/4 reverse on the thumb they look at me like I'm some kind of mutant or something. lol

quote:
A couple of more thoughts.  When these tables were devised, the concept of the proper span was noticeably longer than what we use today.  More important, this does not address finger pitches, which in my opinion must be considered in conjunction with thumb pitch.  For example, last year I went to 1/4 forward from 1/4 reverse on my thumb and did not change a fairly relaxed 4 7/8 span.  However I combined this with going from 1/4 tuck to 1/4 reverse on the fingers.  This caused the relationship between the pitches on my thumb and fingers to stay exactly the same.  Bottom line, it all depends on the flexibility of your hand as much as it does on span, but making parallel moves with the pitches on both the thumb and fingers gives you a much broader range of thumb pitch that you can throw.  In todays game where everyone is looking for the open handed release where you don't hit up, going the other way with the finger pitches is a good move to achieve such a release.  It combines well with going to more forward on the thumb.

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Edited on 6/3/2005 1:20 PM
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Forward from WHAT?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2005, 02:20:27 PM »
Bob,

I agree with you!

The tables really were on a true full fingertip, however they were created wtih the midpoint of middle bone of fingers.

And as you stated where moving a thumb /14 froward from where it is can tighten up a very relaxed span, so also reverseing the fingers has the opposite effect of releasing the now tightened up span.

A move such as yours should lead to less hit in the fingers and a narrowing of the gap between thumb and finger release, thus maybe slightly less revs and hit with the fingers and also a hopefully smoother transition off the harsher wet drys of todays bowling.

So is the theory!

REEgards,

Luckylefty
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stanski

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Re: Forward from WHAT?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2005, 08:41:50 PM »
quote:
quote:
I'm glad that I'm actually forward of the tables.


stanski -- Why?  The tables, as LL has told us over and over, are just a starting point.  We (posters to this Forum, not ball drillers) are putting entirely too much emphasis on the tables, and especially on being forward from what the tables say.  Be glad that you've found a pitch and hole size combination that allows a free swing and smooth, non-squeezing release, and don't worry about how that combination compares to the tables!  --  JohnP


Because of the mental state it puts me in JohnP. The mental aspect of bowling cannot be overstated (this is why I try to get nice looking bowling balls). When I've heard over and over again that more forward is good, and I find out I am forward of some rediculous table (even if it is made up), it puts me in a more positive mental state.
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stanski

Edited on 6/3/2005 8:34 PM
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