Author Topic: PAP Question (Read 12715 times)

Brickguy221 · « **on:** August 24, 2012, 10:06:56 AM »

I have a PAP question here....

When checking the wear of my ball's track, if I measure my PAP using the top of the track wear, it measures 4 1/4 x 1/2 up.

Just before I was forced to quit bowling approx 2 1/2 mos. ago, I Bought a new ball and the pro shop had me throw one of my balls to check the PAP and the driller said my PAP is 4 7/8 x 1/4 up.

Is it possible for the "real" PAP to be different than the top of the wear track the ball shows per the nos. I show above?
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Dogtown · « **Reply #1 on:** August 24, 2012, 11:05:35 AM »

The true test is to put a small piece of white tape on what you think your PAP is. When you throw the ball, it should axis out on the tape marker right off your hand and usually the first several feet (depending on the amount of oil on the lane).

Your post mentioned the "top of the track wear". Normally, you trace the first track ring, closest to the fingers and thumb. The axis of the ring is your PAP.

dwandel · « **Reply #2 on:** August 24, 2012, 05:50:33 PM »

Your PAP can vary between balls due to the difference in ball dynamics

EFFEN 10 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 24, 2012, 06:54:16 PM »

Quote from: dwandel on August 24, 2012, 05:50:33 PM

Your PAP can vary between balls due to the difference in ball dynamics

X2

BallReviews-Removed0385 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 24, 2012, 10:24:22 PM »

Jim,

Nice to hear from you. I hope your health is on the mend.

Your PAP is an indication of how you release the ball. If I measured my PAP off my spare ball, it would be about an inch different (higher) than my reactive equipment. The reason is that I release them differently. More end over end roll for a spare ball that I don't want to hook.

Since we are only using the top oil line to measure from, I really don't think ball dynamics by themselves have any bearing. You may be like me and just release them slightly different, for any number of reasons.

Another thing to consider is that the track wear you are seeing on the ball really isn't your highest oil line at all. Track wear is caused by friction over a period of time. Assuming your first ball rotation is in some head oil, there probably isn't the friction needed to create "track wear" that is as easy to see. Maybe it would over an extended period, but it would take much longer than as the ball flares because it encounters more friction, creating the "wear". Make sense?

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 24, 2012, 10:56:40 PM »

Quote from: notclay on August 24, 2012, 10:24:22 PM

Jim,

Nice to hear from you. I hope your health is on the mend.

Your PAP is an indication of how you release the ball. If I measured my PAP off my spare ball, it would be about an inch different (higher) than my reactive equipment. The reason is that I release them differently. More end over end roll for a spare ball that I don't want to hook.

Since we are only using the top oil line to measure from, I really don't think ball dynamics by themselves have any bearing. You may be like me and just release them slightly different, for any number of reasons.

Another thing to consider is that the track wear you are seeing on the ball really isn't your highest oil line at all. Track wear is caused by friction over a period of time. Assuming your first ball rotation is in some head oil, there probably isn't the friction needed to create "track wear" that is as easy to see. Maybe it would over an extended period, but it would take much longer than as the ball flares because it encounters more friction, creating the "wear". Make sense?

Yeah Lane, I see what you are saying... It does make sense ....

What is confusing to me is that even the top oil line measures less than the 4 7/8" the driller said my PAP is.

In reference to my health, I have 25 treatments done and 5 more daily radiation treatments to go along with 5 more of the same days of chemo inserted 24 hrs a day by a body worn pump.... then wait 4-6 weeks for surgery.

vadertyme03 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 24, 2012, 11:50:05 PM »

Ball dynamics can play a roll as some balls can even start flaring before hitting the lane off your hand, especially if you have any amount of loft.

BallReviews-Removed0385 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2012, 04:55:05 AM »

Quote from: vadertyme03 on August 24, 2012, 11:50:05 PM

Ball dynamics can play a roll as some balls can even start flaring before hitting the lane off your hand, especially if you have any amount of loft.

Please explain. I'm no rocket scientist by any means, but flare happens after the ball comes into contact with the lane. If the ball starts "flaring" (as you put it) before it hits the lane it is due to the rotation, revs, etc. imparted by the bowler, in other words, his release. PAP is, once again, a indicator of how the bowler releases the ball.

If I am misunderstanding something please clarify.

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2012, 06:46:51 AM »

Quote from: notclay on August 25, 2012, 04:55:05 AM

Please explain. I'm no rocket scientist by any means, but flare happens after the ball comes into contact with the lane.

The ball starts precessing (flare) as soon as it come off the hand.

Mo Pinel:

Quote

The initial PAP is the positive end of the bowler's axis of rotation as the ball clears his hand. With flaring balls, the axis begins to precess immediately. That means that the PAP will be different for every revolution as the ball travels down. The axis starts precessing immediately after it clears the bowler's thumb.

Also

Quote

Please bear in mind that the PAP at the point the fingers exit the ball is very consistent. That's probably why blueprint uses that point. But, even though balls don't hook in the air, they still begin precessing the instant the fingers exit the ball. That alone will cause some variations in PAP for different balls. This shows up when measuring the difference the PAP of flaring balls vs. non-flaring balls, which usually approximates 3/8". And, also, bowlers are humans, even though they don't always act like it!

Also;

Quote

"In the real world, the PAP that is used is determined by the first oil ring. So that's the PAP of the first revolution of the ball that's in contact with the lane. The axis migration that takes place before the ball hits the lane can't be measured in the real world."

And since different balls will produce a different PAP, that's why you should get your PAP checked on a similar ball to the one you are laying out to drill.

vadertyme03 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2012, 09:15:55 AM »

^ What he said. Thanks for the explanation help Aloarjr810.

JohnP · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2012, 11:02:40 AM »

Quote from: notclay on August 25, 2012, 04:55:05 AM

Quote from: vadertyme03 on August 24, 2012, 11:50:05 PM
Ball dynamics can play a roll as some balls can even start flaring before hitting the lane off your hand, especially if you have any amount of loft.

Please explain. I'm no rocket scientist by any means, but flare happens after the ball comes into contact with the lane. If the ball starts "flaring" (as you put it) before it hits the lane it is due to the rotation, revs, etc. imparted by the bowler, in other words, his release. PAP is, once again, a indicator of how the bowler releases the ball.

If I am misunderstanding something please clarify.

To Aloarjr810's post I would add that any flare that occurs before the ball hits the lane is obviously not going to create track on the ball. So the PAP at release isn't the PAP that the lane actually sees. -- JohnP

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2012, 11:47:01 AM »

Quote

To Aloarjr810's post I would add that any flare that occurs before the ball hits the lane is obviously not going to create track on the ball. So the PAP at release isn't the PAP that the lane actually sees. -- JohnP

I gave up trying to understand this PAP thing long ago as the way to determine seems to have changed over the years. Years ago, the drillers would have a person throw a ball and then measure off the top oil ring, but it appears that isn't the case anymore. Now it appears that is wrong.

However, I would think in theory that the PAP the lane sees would be more correct than the one where the ball comes of the hand, but apparently that isn't the case. That is how out of it that I am any more and I have given up trying to understand it as well as other things involving the drillings of balls. At my age, I guess I will just have to stick to the old time way which was usually Pin under RF or over RF or by RF drillings. With my inconstancany any more, those drillings will probably be close enough for this old man.... lol

vadertyme03 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 25, 2012, 12:58:20 PM »

To get the truest PAP possibly you need to throw a ball with minimal to no differential. (AKA plastic with a pancake core). There will be minimal to no flare before the ball hits the lane and there will only be one oil ring to evaluate. Granted the only hitch is you need to throw your plastic ball with your normal release and not flatten out.

BallReviews-Removed0385 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 25, 2012, 01:00:07 PM »

Thanks to all who have clarified what you mean.

Quote : "To Aloarjr810's post I would add that any flare that occurs before the ball hits the lane is obviously not going to create track on the ball. So the PAP at release isn't the PAP that the lane actually sees. - JohnP"

I understand what you are saying, but if it doesn't show up on the ball, how do you measure it?

COMMENTARY: I think we get caught up in the "science" of it all way too much. When you talk about flare before the ball even hits the lane it would be useful if we were robots that repeat shots perfectly. Since we aren't then the more useful stuff is the things that are more easily measured. Frankly, most bowlers can't "split boards" as accurately as they think, let alone exactly repeat speed, rev rate, tilt, etc.

A PAP measurement should be thought of as an "average" release for Bowler A versus an exact thing that happens regardless of bowler error, etc. It should be used by the pro shop for layout purposes, just as surface changes and release change recommendations to enhance the bowler's chances. I don't exclude myself when I talk about "most" bowlers. Pinpoint accuracy is not my specialty.

JohnP · « **Reply #14 on:** August 25, 2012, 07:55:11 PM »

Quote

I understand what you are saying, but if it doesn't show up on the ball, how do you measure it?

To measure it you mark the PAP based on the first oil ring then adjust the tape, based on its location as the ball leaves the hand. But Mo Pinel is the expert on modern layout technology and he says to ignore any flare before the ball hits the lane and use the PAP based on the first oil ring. Of course, it should still be confirmed with tape. I didn't mean to recommend using the PAP prior to "flare in the air", was just explaining why the tape might not agree with a PAP marked using the first oil ring. -- JohnP

Author Topic: PAP Question (Read 12715 times)

Brickguy221

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Dogtown

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dwandel

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EFFEN 10

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BallReviews-Removed0385

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Brickguy221

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vadertyme03

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BallReviews-Removed0385

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Aloarjr810

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vadertyme03

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JohnP

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Brickguy221

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vadertyme03

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BallReviews-Removed0385

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JohnP

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