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Author Topic: PAP...SO WHAT?  (Read 16634 times)

OldeBowler

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PAP...SO WHAT?
« on: October 02, 2009, 10:42:38 AM »
PAP...SO WHAT?

Even if I tell my 'pro' shop operator my PAP he never seems able to convert that into a layout that I really want.  How do you take an undrilled ball and convert it into a layout that you want by starting with your PAP?

Thanks for the help>
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TheFreeAgent

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2009, 06:57:10 PM »
Pap is a joke to me but you say what you want it to do and use your pap to lay it out if you want strong you do a 4x4 or 3 3/8 x 3 3/8 and idk what the others do it's all just to make bowlers think there drillers are god and to justify paying 60 dollars to drill a ball
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Ryan "Junk" Pitman
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Indianapolis IN.

leftyinsnellville

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2009, 07:08:20 PM »
It all starts with your pap.  I like using Mo Pinel''s dual angle technique, but for simplicity I''ll describe how I layout a symmetrical ball using the "normal" method.

Let''s say I want a ball that is 5 x 4.  I''ll measure 5 inches from the pin in a semi-circle and then connect the dots.  Then I''ll measure 4 inches from the cg and mark wherever it intersects with the semi-circle. That''s the pap.

Then I''ll choose how far I want the pin from my val and mark that.  Then I draw the val vertically through that mark through the pap.  If your pap is 5 inches over and 1 inch up, you''ll just measure it the opposite.  Measure 1 inch down from your pap on the val, mark it, and then draw a horizontal line through that mark at 90 degrees from your val.  Measure 5 inches over and mark it.  That''s your grip center.

Just lay it out as usual from your grip center.  That''s it.

Edited on 10/2/2009 7:12 PM
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Aloarjr810

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2009, 07:09:43 PM »
If you want some basic info on how a ball is layed out.

Take a look at this
Prosect Users Guide

It has the info on how to do it, combine it with a drill sheet for ball and you you could just about do a basic layout yourself.
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Guined

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2009, 10:42:19 PM »
Roto

So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?
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JohnP

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2009, 11:33:54 AM »
quote:
Even if I tell my 'pro' shop operator my PAP he never seems able to convert that into a layout that I really want.


Can you explain exactly what you mean by this?  Are you saying your driller doesn't know how to lay a ball out off your PAP?  If so, you need to find a new driller.  Or are you saying that after he does the layout you don't like how it looks?  If that's the case you need to try a ball as he has layed it out and see if it gives you the desired reaction.  If you have an unusually short or long horizontal component to your PAP the layout won't look like what's in the drill sheet that comes with the ball.  --  JohnP
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Bluff

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2009, 12:53:22 PM »
well if your PAP is diffrent every ball then ya is useless.

no matter what ball you use it will be same.
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OldeBowler

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2009, 05:22:35 PM »
quote:
quote:
Even if I tell my 'pro' shop operator my PAP he never seems able to convert that into a layout that I really want.


I live in a small town and do not have many choices.  The guy who does the drilling thinks that PAP, VA, CG is all a lot of nonsense.

Can you explain exactly what you mean by this?  Are you saying your driller doesn't know how to lay a ball out off your PAP?  If so, you need to find a new driller.  Or are you saying that after he does the layout you don't like how it looks?  If that's the case you need to try a ball as he has layed it out and see if it gives you the desired reaction.  If you have an unusually short or long horizontal component to your PAP the layout won't look like what's in the drill sheet that comes with the ball.  --  JohnP
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JustABowler

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2009, 12:31:01 AM »
Sounds like you need to start traveling outside of that small town.
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TheFreeAgent

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2009, 02:20:47 AM »
"So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?"

I don't measure anything I just know from past drillings what placement the pin and cg and sometimes mb does to the ball in terms of how it rolls I base every thing off my center of grip line like if I want it to be really strong I go pin above ring with cg in line under it . Or if I jut want a little earlier roll I would put my pin down 12 o'clock with cg 45 degrees I don't really like mb balls I stY symetrical
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Ryan "Junk" Pitman
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kidlost2000

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2009, 05:16:53 AM »
"So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?"

Exactly.

People see pictures and say oh that is what I want and assume that is a certain layout because the pin is under the ring finger and the cg is a little right of the center grip line and the mb is just right of the thumb so it is drilled 5x4x5 or whatever the pic was.

The pic is a reference. 5x4x5 will look differently for different people.

My PAP is exactly 5.5" inches right of my center grip line, and my brothers is 4.5" right and 0.5 up.

So 5x4x5 would look one way for me and something completely different for him.

So just assume his PAP is 4.5" over with no up or down. There would be an inch of difference in all those values. If we had the same span 5x4x5 for me would be 4x3x4 for him because of how we throw the ball differently.

Thats why two people can throw the same ball and have different reactions. In most cases it my not be a lot and in others it may be very noticeable. Because for one bowler that pattern may be a bit on the tame side and for the other it could be a much stronger pattern.



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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

JohnP

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2009, 05:33:19 PM »
quote:
I live in a small town and do not have many choices. The guy who does the drilling thinks that PAP, VA, CG is all a lot of nonsense.


As I see it you have three choices.  1.  Continue on as is and wonder if you could be getting better ball reactions.  2.  Learn what affects ball reaction and how to lay the ball out yourself so all your driller has to do is punch the holes.  3.  Find a more competent driller and drive as needed to get the service you deserve.  A possible fourth option would be to convince your driller to spend the time and money to learn modern layout techniques.  --  JohnP
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JessN16

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2009, 11:27:56 PM »
quote:
"So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?"

I don't measure anything I just know from past drillings what placement the pin and cg and sometimes mb does to the ball in terms of how it rolls I base every thing off my center of grip line like if I want it to be really strong I go pin above ring with cg in line under it . Or if I jut want a little earlier roll I would put my pin down 12 o'clock with cg 45 degrees I don't really like mb balls I stY symetrical


You may not know it, but you're actually using your PAP in the drilling when you do this.

The reason "pin above ring with CG in line under it" makes a ball "strong" for you is that the pin and CG are probably falling about 3.75 inches from your PAP in that location. What's important is not that the pin happens to be in a specific place, it's that it happens to be a specific distance from your PAP.

There are some very good bowlers who only use one or two specific layouts on their stuff and then adjust surface if needed. Tony Reyes is one. But that doesn't change the fact that, on those one or two specific layouts, his pin and CG (and MB if it's an asymmetrical ball) are ending up a specific distance from his PAP.

Jess
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kidlost2000

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2009, 01:38:12 AM »
"The reason "pin above ring with CG in line under it" makes a ball "strong" for you is that the pin and CG are probably falling about 3.75 inches from your PAP in that location."

It's a great strong location for me as well, but that makes the pin 5-5.5" inches from my PAP. Which is a lot different reaction from 3.75" inches.

The reason pin above the right finger with the cg in the palm area is a good pattern is because in most cases for most people it is a very safe pattern that will give the ball length with a strong backend reaction because of the pin placement not just distance.

You can have the pin 5" from your pap above the right finger or below and they will react differently even though they are the same distance from your pap. One will go long and snap and the other will roll a little sooner with more of an arc.

I know some places that drill a lot of equipment and 85% of what they drill is just pin above or pin below the bowlers ring finger with the cg in the palm. Because that will roll good for most people and doesn't require a weight hole or any worries in most cases of the ball flaring over the fingers or thumb. Safe standard patterns if you will.
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OldeBowler

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Re: PAP...SO WHAT?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2009, 10:38:31 AM »
From all of the replies to this question one thing is apparent:  You guys don't seem to agree on the importance of PAP, how to find it and how to use it once you've found it.  Your answers run from "it's not important" to "watch this Prosect video".  But thanks for the advice.  So far "leftyinsnellville" seems to have the easiest approach.  And I'm sure not goint to buy a Prosect.
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