BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: OldeBowler on October 02, 2009, 10:42:38 AM
-
PAP...SO WHAT?
Even if I tell my 'pro' shop operator my PAP he never seems able to convert that into a layout that I really want. How do you take an undrilled ball and convert it into a layout that you want by starting with your PAP?
Thanks for the help>
-
Pap is a joke to me but you say what you want it to do and use your pap to lay it out if you want strong you do a 4x4 or 3 3/8 x 3 3/8 and idk what the others do it's all just to make bowlers think there drillers are god and to justify paying 60 dollars to drill a ball
-
It all starts with your pap. I like using Mo Pinel''s dual angle technique, but for simplicity I''ll describe how I layout a symmetrical ball using the "normal" method.
Let''s say I want a ball that is 5 x 4. I''ll measure 5 inches from the pin in a semi-circle and then connect the dots. Then I''ll measure 4 inches from the cg and mark wherever it intersects with the semi-circle. That''s the pap.
Then I''ll choose how far I want the pin from my val and mark that. Then I draw the val vertically through that mark through the pap. If your pap is 5 inches over and 1 inch up, you''ll just measure it the opposite. Measure 1 inch down from your pap on the val, mark it, and then draw a horizontal line through that mark at 90 degrees from your val. Measure 5 inches over and mark it. That''s your grip center.
Just lay it out as usual from your grip center. That''s it.
Edited on 10/2/2009 7:12 PM
-
If you want some basic info on how a ball is layed out.
Take a look at this
Prosect Users Guide (http://"http://www.turbogrips.com/downloads/ProSectUserGuide.pdf")
It has the info on how to do it, combine it with a drill sheet for ball and you you could just about do a basic layout yourself.
--------------------
Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip (http://"http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w89/aloarjr810/bowlingxtras/mygrip.gif")
-
Roto
So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?
--------------------
Rick Guined
Owner/Operator: New Millennium Proshop: http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/Guined/
Vise PBA Regional Staff Player
IBPSIA Certified Technician
USBC Bronze Certified Instructor
www.viseinserts.com
-
quote:
Even if I tell my 'pro' shop operator my PAP he never seems able to convert that into a layout that I really want.
Can you explain exactly what you mean by this? Are you saying your driller doesn't know how to lay a ball out off your PAP? If so, you need to find a new driller. Or are you saying that after he does the layout you don't like how it looks? If that's the case you need to try a ball as he has layed it out and see if it gives you the desired reaction. If you have an unusually short or long horizontal component to your PAP the layout won't look like what's in the drill sheet that comes with the ball. -- JohnP
-
well if your PAP is diffrent every ball then ya is useless.
no matter what ball you use it will be same.
--------------------
"A man with no skills can be taught. A man with no honor, has nothing."
-
quote:
quote:
Even if I tell my 'pro' shop operator my PAP he never seems able to convert that into a layout that I really want.
I live in a small town and do not have many choices. The guy who does the drilling thinks that PAP, VA, CG is all a lot of nonsense.
Can you explain exactly what you mean by this? Are you saying your driller doesn't know how to lay a ball out off your PAP? If so, you need to find a new driller. Or are you saying that after he does the layout you don't like how it looks? If that's the case you need to try a ball as he has layed it out and see if it gives you the desired reaction. If you have an unusually short or long horizontal component to your PAP the layout won't look like what's in the drill sheet that comes with the ball. -- JohnP
-
Sounds like you need to start traveling outside of that small town.
-
"So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?"
I don't measure anything I just know from past drillings what placement the pin and cg and sometimes mb does to the ball in terms of how it rolls I base every thing off my center of grip line like if I want it to be really strong I go pin above ring with cg in line under it . Or if I jut want a little earlier roll I would put my pin down 12 o'clock with cg 45 degrees I don't really like mb balls I stY symetrical
-
"So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?"
Exactly.
People see pictures and say oh that is what I want and assume that is a certain layout because the pin is under the ring finger and the cg is a little right of the center grip line and the mb is just right of the thumb so it is drilled 5x4x5 or whatever the pic was.
The pic is a reference. 5x4x5 will look differently for different people.
My PAP is exactly 5.5" inches right of my center grip line, and my brothers is 4.5" right and 0.5 up.
So 5x4x5 would look one way for me and something completely different for him.
So just assume his PAP is 4.5" over with no up or down. There would be an inch of difference in all those values. If we had the same span 5x4x5 for me would be 4x3x4 for him because of how we throw the ball differently.
Thats why two people can throw the same ball and have different reactions. In most cases it my not be a lot and in others it may be very noticeable. Because for one bowler that pattern may be a bit on the tame side and for the other it could be a much stronger pattern.
--------------------
" hand, don't step on the lanes without some "
-
quote:
I live in a small town and do not have many choices. The guy who does the drilling thinks that PAP, VA, CG is all a lot of nonsense.
As I see it you have three choices. 1. Continue on as is and wonder if you could be getting better ball reactions. 2. Learn what affects ball reaction and how to lay the ball out yourself so all your driller has to do is punch the holes. 3. Find a more competent driller and drive as needed to get the service you deserve. A possible fourth option would be to convince your driller to spend the time and money to learn modern layout techniques. -- JohnP
-
quote:
"So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?"
I don't measure anything I just know from past drillings what placement the pin and cg and sometimes mb does to the ball in terms of how it rolls I base every thing off my center of grip line like if I want it to be really strong I go pin above ring with cg in line under it . Or if I jut want a little earlier roll I would put my pin down 12 o'clock with cg 45 degrees I don't really like mb balls I stY symetrical
You may not know it, but you're actually using your PAP in the drilling when you do this.
The reason "pin above ring with CG in line under it" makes a ball "strong" for you is that the pin and CG are probably falling about 3.75 inches from your PAP in that location. What's important is not that the pin happens to be in a specific place, it's that it happens to be a specific distance from your PAP.
There are some very good bowlers who only use one or two specific layouts on their stuff and then adjust surface if needed. Tony Reyes is one. But that doesn't change the fact that, on those one or two specific layouts, his pin and CG (and MB if it's an asymmetrical ball) are ending up a specific distance from his PAP.
Jess
-
"The reason "pin above ring with CG in line under it" makes a ball "strong" for you is that the pin and CG are probably falling about 3.75 inches from your PAP in that location."
It's a great strong location for me as well, but that makes the pin 5-5.5" inches from my PAP. Which is a lot different reaction from 3.75" inches.
The reason pin above the right finger with the cg in the palm area is a good pattern is because in most cases for most people it is a very safe pattern that will give the ball length with a strong backend reaction because of the pin placement not just distance.
You can have the pin 5" from your pap above the right finger or below and they will react differently even though they are the same distance from your pap. One will go long and snap and the other will roll a little sooner with more of an arc.
I know some places that drill a lot of equipment and 85% of what they drill is just pin above or pin below the bowlers ring finger with the cg in the palm. Because that will roll good for most people and doesn't require a weight hole or any worries in most cases of the ball flaring over the fingers or thumb. Safe standard patterns if you will.
--------------------
" hand, don't step on the lanes without some "
-
From all of the replies to this question one thing is apparent: You guys don't seem to agree on the importance of PAP, how to find it and how to use it once you've found it. Your answers run from "it's not important" to "watch this Prosect video". But thanks for the advice. So far "leftyinsnellville" seems to have the easiest approach. And I'm sure not goint to buy a Prosect.
--------------------
Old Bowlers Do It With Less Revs!
-
To me it is important in a way. I know mine and I "somewhat" use it in my drillings. I will decide what I want a ball to do and just estimate where to put the pin based off of my PAP. I don't ever say I want 5x5 and then measure it. I just guess where that would put the pin and am usually within a 1/4 of an inch. Which to me is close enough because at the end of the day the surface and characteristics of the ball are gonna take over more than the drilling unless it is some kind of extreme mb angle or pin to pap distance. Thats my opinion on it.
-
quote:
From all of the replies to this question one thing is apparent: You guys don't seem to agree on the importance of PAP, how to find it and how to use it once you've found it.
To a large extent the importance of drilling based on the PAP depends on the ability of the bowler. Layout selection falls behind ball selection, which determines the coverstock and core, and surface preparation in affect on ball reaction. If the customer is a 150 average bowler, the layout won't make a lot of difference. However, if he's a 220 average bowler the fine tuning of the reaction shape may be very important to him. Also, the more revs a bowler has the more the layout affects the reaction. -- JohnP
-
The PAP does matter but if somebody has drilled enough or knows enough about there game so that they know what certain pin positions and MB/CG placements, the more power to them.
I personally dont know my own PAP, ive drilled enough stuff to know what layouts work for me.
--------------------
Only throw the good stuff, Roto/Global.
www.bowlsk.com/view-profile.html
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
-
JohnP your right on the money!
Surface is a large protion of ball motion and it controls more of the front and mid portion of the lane. layout contols reaction shape and how the ball comes of the pattern.
The thing is it only takes seconds to layout a ball using a bowlers PAP coordinates. Every client I drill for I either find thier PAP or they have given me that information.
--------------------
Rick Guined
Owner/Operator: New Millennium Proshop: http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/Guined/
Vise PBA Regional Staff Player
IBPSIA Certified Technician
USBC Bronze Certified Instructor
www.viseinserts.com
-
Here's the point of your PAP...
Your PAP is nothing more than the axis point created by your hand position at the point of release. If the ball did not have a dynamic core, the ball would roll around this one spot all the way down the lane. However, with a core that spreads out the weight throughout the ball in different ways, this axis point is also the point to which the core wants to migrate as the ball rolls down the lane. Therefore, where you position the core in relation to your axis point determines how the ball will roll for you compared to someone else who throws the same exact ball but has a different axis point. If your PAP is 3.5 inches straight across from your grip center, and your buddy's PAP is 5.5 inches straight across from grip center, you two could get totally, completely different motions out of the same ball since you have a big difference in how far the pin ends up from the axis point at release. For someone with a 3.5x0 PAP, a pin over fingers layout is pretty darn strong. For someone with a 5.5x0 PAP, that same pin over fingers layout is fairly weak!
You don't necessarily need to know exactly where your PAP is and very specifically map out a layout to the 1/32nd of an inch to get a good ball motion. I know that my PAP is 5 1/4" over by 3/4" up. I therefore know that a pin-over-bridge layout for me will be a relatively weak layout that creates good backend motion. I also know that a pin just under and to the right of the ring finger will be a high flaring, earlier rolling layout. When I'm getting a ball drilled, I'll talk to my ball driller about the kind of ball motion I want, and I'll tell him the kind of layout I think will achieve this, and 9 times out of 10 I can visualize almost exactly how the layout will look when we get it put on the ball. However, measuring it off the PAP just makes things much more consistent and predictable, and actually just as quick as eyeballing it. A good ball driller can completely mark up the layout for a ball in just a couple minutes using Mo Pinel's Dual Angle system or Storm's Pin Buffer system for example. He'll get predictable, consistent results by using a good PAP-based layout system, and it's not like it requires a bunch of time and effort.
-
PAP can be different from ball to ball. Weaker core balls, like you spare ball, will have a different pap than a ball with a much stonger core. I know, as the cores started to get stronger, my pap have changed.
-
quote:
From all of the replies to this question one thing is apparent: You guys don't seem to agree on the importance of PAP, how to find it and how to use it once you've found it. Your answers run from "it's not important" to "watch this Prosect video". But thanks for the advice. So far "leftyinsnellville" seems to have the easiest approach. And I'm sure not goint to buy a Prosect.
--------------------
Old Bowlers Do It With Less Revs!
Since I'm the only one that mentioned a prosect. That link is not to a "video", it's a copy of the "Motion Enhancement Guide" for use with a prosect.
You asked
quote:
How do you take an undrilled ball and convert it into a layout that you want by starting with your PAP?
The manual just showed the basic information on laying out a ball and shows how the PAP was used in the process of laying out a ball. I wasn't suggesting you buy Prosect.
The best thing to do is find a Pro-Shop with someone who knows what their doing.Even if you have to drive little way.
-
quote:
PAP can be different from ball to ball. Weaker core balls, like you spare ball, will have a different pap than a ball with a much stonger core. I know, as the cores started to get stronger, my pap have changed.
The PAP is measured from the initial oil track on the ball(The first oil line).The release is what sets that not the core.
-
quote:
PAP can be different from ball to ball. Weaker core balls, like you spare ball, will have a different pap than a ball with a much stonger core. I know, as the cores started to get stronger, my pap have changed.
Your measurement of your PAP may be different with a strong core, since the core may actually begin to flare and migrate back to a stable position before it can get on the lane and pick up oil rings. If you release a low-flaring ball exactly the same as your high-flaring equipment and slap a piece of tape on the PAP, it should be in the same spot when the ball comes off your hand, even if it already begins to move by the time the ball hits the floor.
-
Hey, I've got balls that track within 1 inch of my fingers and thumb and others that track about 3 inches from fingers and thumb. Don't you use the oil line closest to your thumb to find the PAP ? If a driller used each ball to determine PAP wouldn't I have different PAPs for each ball based on where it tracks ?
P.S., I think this is related to what Ye OldeBowler is referring to "How do you take an undrilled ball and convert it into a layout that you want by starting with your PAP?"
Since you need the bowlers track lines to find the PAP, right ?
-
this is why a non or low flaring ball is used to measure pap (plastic)
for those drilling their own stuff and having done so for awhile, they KNOW what pin locations work. but if a guy comes into the shop and wants a new ball and wants it to do "x" I am gonna take an old ball and find his track on it and use this as a basis for layout. Ive seen too many guys come in the shop with balls drilled pin up and right and they are a full roller, the only way one would know that is by two things, watching them bowl and measuring their pap.
so many full rollers or 3/4 full rollers get crap drills cause no one has taken the time. there are a ton of drillers out there (and obviously a bunch here) that stand by the old pin up and right of rind drilling
I drill my own stuff, and still use my pap to lay out the ball, why cause I tend to do some different drillings to try out and have specific numbers i am shooting for
a pin beside ring for me is a heck of a lot different then a pin beside ring for a guy with a 4.00 over and 1" up pap
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
-
Bowlin for Beer,
Let's see if we can help you understand how to layout a ball using your PAP coordinates. PAP stands for Positive Axis Point. It is the rotional axis point that the ball is rotating on at the point of your release.
These coordiates are measured in a horizontal and vertical direction from the center of your grip.
So lets use my PAP as an example, I'm 5" over and 1/4" up. Let's say I've decided that I am going to use a layout that is a 60° X 4 1/2" X 30° on an Asymetrical ball.
Using a Prosect,
1st. I would first draw a line from the Pin "Low RG Axis" to the Mass Bias "Also called the PSA short for Preferred Spin Axis, and is also the High RG Axis of the ball.
2nd. I would then place the top of the Prosect on the center of the pin and align the edge of the 0° rib on the line just drawn from the pin to the Mass Bias.
3rd. Then on the Protractor of the Proscet I would mark the 60° point.
4th. Draw a line from the center of the pin through the mark at 60°. You need to draw this line longer than teh pin length you are looking for.
5th. Measuring from the center of the pin along the line you just drew mark your pin length at 4 1/2 inches. This is your PAP location.
6th. Turn the ball around and place the top of your Prosect at the PAP mark and align the 0° rib along the line you drew for pin length.
7th. Now on thh other side of the protractor make a mark at 30°.
8th. Draw a line from the 30° mark through the PAP mark. This line is the VAL "Vertical Axis Line"
9th. Now you can reverse your PAP coordinates to find the center of your grip. So for me I would measure down the VAL from the PAP 1/4" and mark it.
10th. Turn the Prosect 90° with 0 of the ruler at the mark just made and the 0° rib going up the VAL draw a line from the 0 mark to the left side of the prosect. This is the grip Midline
11th. Without moving the Prosect make a mark at 5".
12th. Turn the Prosect 90° to the midline and draw a line. This is the centerline.
From all of this you can then mark for your finger and thumb holes.
--------------------
Rick Guined
Owner/Operator: New Millennium Proshop: http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/Guined/
Vise PBA Regional Staff Player
IBPSIA Certified Technician
USBC Bronze Certified Instructor
www.viseinserts.com
-
Ya know, it amazes me how many people chime in on a subject they obviously know very little about. There are some very knowledgeable people on the boards that, if you took the time to read through the drilling forum, you would find are pretty reliable sources of info (JohnP for example). And then there are people who just "think" they know what they are talking about. It really does amaze me.
As a pro shop owner, if I didn''t believe the PAP was important, I wouldn''t be in business any more. And if I still was, I would have lost numerous customers and have a crappy reputation as some other shops locally already do for this reason. If I were to completely throw out a random number, I would say 92% of decent bowlers track relatively normal, meaning their axis point is in the "happy" range where your driller can guess and get lucky 99% of the time. There are other times where you dont get lucky, and you are wrong. That ONE bad result can ruin a business. I prefer not to guess and not find my customers thumping thumb holes, finger holes, weight holes, and not to mention having an all around bad ball reaction. I feel sorry for the people who limit themselves to "Average Joe" layouts.
On that note, the whole "I have different PAPs on different balls" is horsecrap. USE A PLASTIC BALL. Pin location and core migration affects your track location. If you use an armadillo or whatever other teqhnique besides plastic to get your pap, you should verify by placing a piece of tape in that location on your plastic ball. The tape should not wobble. If you cant use the same release on your plastic that you do on your performance equipment, then either your measurements dont match or you are retarded.
Edited on 10/5/2009 7:56 PM
-
quote:
It's a great strong location for me as well, but that makes the pin 5-5.5" inches from my PAP. Which is a lot different reaction from 3.75" inches.
The reason pin above the right finger with the cg in the palm area is a good pattern is because in most cases for most people it is a very safe pattern that will give the ball length with a strong backend reaction because of the pin placement not just distance.
You can have the pin 5" from your pap above the right finger or below and they will react differently even though they are the same distance from your pap. One will go long and snap and the other will roll a little sooner with more of an arc.
I know some places that drill a lot of equipment and 85% of what they drill is just pin above or pin below the bowlers ring finger with the cg in the palm. Because that will roll good for most people and doesn't require a weight hole or any worries in most cases of the ball flaring over the fingers or thumb. Safe standard patterns if you will.
--------------------
" hand, don't step on the lanes without some "
Should have been more clear that the pin/CG/MB in this alignment is falling into the zone that makes best use of the ball's built-in ability to perform. For most bowlers, that's probably around the 3-4 inch mark from PAP (and with the proper angle) but it can be 5 or up depending on your style, how much you rev the ball, the conditions you see, etc.
The overall point I was trying to make is that pin-above-ring by itself means nothing. For a spinner with a PAP 2 over 1 up, it's a whole different ball of wax than for someone 5.5 over 0 up.
In summary, what matters is distance from PAP and the proper angle to it. For many people, maxing out the ball's performance characteristics ends up with the pin being somewhere in the immediate vicinity of the ring finger hole. A more accurate statement than "pin over ring is always a good layout for me" would be "pin over ring is always a good layout for me because it puts the pin x-number of inches away from the PAP at y-angle." The major difference between the two statements is just the amount of understanding that goes into the latter.
Jess
-
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So if PAP is a joke to you where would you measure your 4X4 or 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 from?"
I don't measure anything I just know from past drillings what placement the pin and cg and sometimes mb does to the ball in terms of how it rolls I base every thing off my center of grip line like if I want it to be really strong I go pin above ring with cg in line under it . Or if I jut want a little earlier roll I would put my pin down 12 o'clock with cg 45 degrees I don't really like mb balls I stY symetrical
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may not know it, but you're actually using your PAP in the drilling when you do this.
The reason "pin above ring with CG in line under it" makes a ball "strong" for you is that the pin and CG are probably falling about 3.75 inches from your PAP in that location. What's important is not that the pin happens to be in a specific place, it's that it happens to be a specific distance from your PAP.
There are some very good bowlers who only use one or two specific layouts on their stuff and then adjust surface if needed. Tony Reyes is one. But that doesn't change the fact that, on those one or two specific layouts, his pin and CG (and MB if it's an asymmetrical ball) are ending up a specific distance from his PAP.
Jess
thats why i say every time somebody says you have to use your pap to lay out a ball. All layouts are from your pap you just have to figure out just how far,which i dont do, becuase i dont care i dont know what 5x5 3x4 and all that jazz does and i dont really ever plan on finding out unless im extremely bored.
-
If you want to try different patterns or be able to better fine tune your equipment to your paticular bowling style it is great.
If you want to stick with two or three patterns that are pin above or below the fingers and the cg around the palm that is fine.
But by knowing your PAP you can more accurately recreate those drillings and then go from there with being able to try other patterns if desired. It''s a great starting point for mapping out your equipment that is easy to do.
--------------------
" hand, don''t step on the lanes without some "
Edited on 10/6/2009 4:25 AM