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Author Topic: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap  (Read 7716 times)

J_w73

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Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« on: January 11, 2023, 12:15:27 PM »
Just wondering what people's opinion is on a pin at center of grip(5" pin to PAP) to create a smooth controlled ball motion vs a short 2" pin to PAP layout? 

Do you think one is better than the other for balls with a higher RG vs lower RG? 

Is one better than the other for balls with high differential vs low differential?

I know with an asymmetrical ball you will get more of a Rico layout motion with the pin at center grip , but I'm just wondering about symmetrical balls at this time.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2023, 12:48:52 PM »
When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.

When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.
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TWOHAND834

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2023, 01:23:33 PM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on January 11, 2023, 12:48:52 PM
When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.

When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.

Yeah.  But when the pin goes below the fingers it reduces flare and lowers the differential which tends to make the ball smoother, not more responsive (75 degree VAL angle is slower off friction than a 25). 

Where I think the biggest difference is going to take place is the front part of the lane.  The 5 inch pin will still clear the fronts better while yielding a similar backend as the short pin.  While similar, the continuation from the pin down 5 inch pin should be slightly more than the short pin because the whole purpose of the short pin is to take any angularity off the backend.  Think of backend reaction in this manner:

Short pin:  least amount of backend
Pin near palm:  more continuation than the short pin but still controllable
Tall pin:  the closer to the VAL you get, the more violent the backend.
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J_w73

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2023, 01:37:07 PM »
Quote from: TWOHAND834 on January 11, 2023, 01:23:33 PM
Quote from: ignitebowling on January 11, 2023, 12:48:52 PM
When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.

When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.

Yeah.  But when the pin goes below the fingers it reduces flare and lowers the differential which tends to make the ball smoother, not more responsive (75 degree VAL angle is slower off friction than a 25). 

Where I think the biggest difference is going to take place is the front part of the lane.  The 5 inch pin will still clear the fronts better while yielding a similar backend as the short pin.  While similar, the continuation from the pin down 5 inch pin should be slightly more than the short pin because the whole purpose of the short pin is to take any angularity off the backend.  Think of backend reaction in this manner:

Short pin:  least amount of backend
Pin near palm:  more continuation than the short pin but still controllable
Tall pin:  the closer to the VAL you get, the more violent the backend.

Thanks. Pretty much what I was thinking.  What do you think about a Twist(2.59 0.018 diff) vs a power torq(2.48 0.054 diff) for short oil.  38 ft.  Was thinking about doing the Torq with pin in grip and Twist short pin to PAP.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2023, 01:46:19 PM »
Quote from: TWOHAND834 on January 11, 2023, 01:23:33 PM
Quote from: ignitebowling on January 11, 2023, 12:48:52 PM
When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.

When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.

Yeah.  But when the pin goes below the fingers it reduces flare and lowers the differential which tends to make the ball smoother, not more responsive (75 degree VAL angle is slower off friction than a 25). 

Where I think the biggest difference is going to take place is the front part of the lane.  The 5 inch pin will still clear the fronts better while yielding a similar backend as the short pin.  While similar, the continuation from the pin down 5 inch pin should be slightly more than the short pin because the whole purpose of the short pin is to take any angularity off the backend.  Think of backend reaction in this manner:

Short pin:  least amount of backend
Pin near palm:  more continuation than the short pin but still controllable
Tall pin:  the closer to the VAL you get, the more violent the backend.

For most bowlers the change in numbers of pin up or down doesnt matter. Pin to pap will be the bigger factor in the reaction for most. Someone should make a video on it with throwbot


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J_w73

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2023, 03:02:02 PM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on January 11, 2023, 01:46:19 PM
Quote from: TWOHAND834 on January 11, 2023, 01:23:33 PM
Quote from: ignitebowling on January 11, 2023, 12:48:52 PM
When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.

When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.

Yeah.  But when the pin goes below the fingers it reduces flare and lowers the differential which tends to make the ball smoother, not more responsive (75 degree VAL angle is slower off friction than a 25). 

Where I think the biggest difference is going to take place is the front part of the lane.  The 5 inch pin will still clear the fronts better while yielding a similar backend as the short pin.  While similar, the continuation from the pin down 5 inch pin should be slightly more than the short pin because the whole purpose of the short pin is to take any angularity off the backend.  Think of backend reaction in this manner:

Short pin:  least amount of backend
Pin near palm:  more continuation than the short pin but still controllable
Tall pin:  the closer to the VAL you get, the more violent the backend.

For most bowlers the change in numbers of pin up or down doesnt matter. Pin to pap will be the bigger factor in the reaction for most. Someone should make a video on it with throwbot




off topic side note, but that video...  splitting the 7 8... hahaha.  Well that shot was extremely heavy, if not almost through the nose, and hit the left side of the 5 pin, so of course it is going to finish way farther left than a pocket hit.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2023, 04:41:46 PM »
You have to watch the videos on mute. The stupid stuff said on most will cause an aneurysm. It's the reason bowlers are typically ignorant. Marketing over everything
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Strider

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2023, 05:55:20 AM »
I prefer the short pin reaction. It's smooth and rolly and still moves down lane and the pin in center of the grip is lopey and doesn't pick a roll very good for me. I've had a short pin Ringer for a while that gets used here and there. I just found a Sidewinder that I forgot I had (Rico). I had the weight hole filled and so far I'm not impressed. I did have some pretty crappy lanes the two time's I've thrown it, but I'm still not optimistic it's going to be good for me.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2023, 07:16:40 AM »
Quote from: Strider on January 12, 2023, 05:55:20 AM
I prefer the short pin reaction. It's smooth and rolly and still moves down lane and the pin in center of the grip is lopey and doesn't pick a roll very good for me. I've had a short pin Ringer for a while that gets used here and there. I just found a Sidewinder that I forgot I had (Rico). I had the weight hole filled and so far I'm not impressed. I did have some pretty crappy lanes the two time's I've thrown it, but I'm still not optimistic it's going to be good for me.

What is the pin to pap on the Sidewinder? Without a weight hole the reaction is not going to be the same as with it no doubt. When you have the hole it helps bring the PSA out away from the center grip line below the thumb towards the val. Allowing the ball to slow down sooner and make its move.
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Strider

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2023, 05:49:10 AM »
I'd have to measure, probably 5-6" pin to PAP. I was just giving my insight to the OP about pin in grip center vs. a short pin. Obviously dynamics won't be the same without the designed weight hole, but can't have them anymore.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2023, 09:07:03 AM »
Quote from: Strider on January 13, 2023, 05:49:10 AM
I'd have to measure, probably 5-6" pin to PAP. I was just giving my insight to the OP about pin in grip center vs. a short pin. Obviously dynamics won't be the same without the designed weight hole, but can't have them anymore.

Explains the ball reaction you see with it
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3835

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2023, 11:40:30 AM »
For what it is worth, I see the same on a short pin layout versus a 5-6 inch pin layout (ala RICO). I really prefer the short pin layout, by a mile.
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Strider

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2023, 03:51:38 PM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on January 13, 2023, 09:07:03 AM

Explains the ball reaction you see with it

It does, but again was just explaining the reaction difference to the OP who was interested. One has the pin very far from the axis, one is very close. Neither will flare a lot, but one might prefer the reaction of one over the other. Like 3835 I prefer the short pin reaction also.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 12:45:01 AM by Strider »
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2023, 09:14:48 PM »
Quote from: Strider on January 13, 2023, 03:51:38 PM
Quote from: ignitebowling on January 13, 2023, 09:07:03 AM

Explains the ball reaction you see with it

It does, but again was just explaining the reaction difference to the OP who was interested. One has the pin very far from the axis, one is very close. Neither will flare a lot, but one might prefer the reaction of one over the other. Like 3835 I prefer the short pin reaction also.
[/quote]

I discussed the difference in my first reply. It seems most on this thread think the pin in the palm area is the Rico layout which is incorrect. Take away the pin location and just focus on the pin to pap distances vs in palm or above the bridge etc.
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Strider

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Re: Pin center of grip vs short pin to pap
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2023, 12:52:59 AM »
I do see more length with the long pin to PAP distance, but I don't see the fast response to friction from your initial response. If I did, maybe I'd like the reaction more. Right now it has no place in my bag. Maybe for someone with a higher rev rate? From memory, high rev guys liked the (true) Rico drill with the weight hole more also.
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