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Author Topic: stupid question about cg placement  (Read 3420 times)

iron chariots 02

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stupid question about cg placement
« on: July 24, 2006, 03:14:54 PM »
i normally use a 1:30 drilling with my cg kicked towards my grip
line because i prefer a smoother reaction and 12:00 drillings tend
to either be too strong at the breakpoint and also tend to hook and
set for me. i'm thinking of trying a 10:30 type drilling and would like
to know if you drilling gurus think that it would be worse than a 12:00
when it comes to a ball overeacting or is it the best control type
drilling? also, if all things are equal, will a 10:30 drilling begin
to hit flat as the lanes begin to dry out faster than the other two
drillings because most of the bowling alleys in my area don't use alot
of oil.

if it helps my specs are

ball speed: 17 mph
rev rate: 300-350 rpms
rotation: 20-45 degrees

can someone also explain the pros and cons of both 1:30 and 10:30 drillings
and what type of style bowler that they are best for on a typical house shot.

Edited on 7/24/2006 11:17 PM

 

kmanestor22

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2006, 11:27:03 PM »
if your PAP is 5-3/4 over, you are a high tracker.  a 10:30 pin will more than likely clip the holes. you could use a flare increasing weight hole but it still may clip.  i am also a high tracker, and i prefer the pin below the ring finger and the cg kicked out and below my midline.  i then draw a line from the center of my grip through the cg, measure 6 inches, and drill a weight hole to bring it back to legal.  This should provide a smoother reaction than what you described and should recover better when you miss to the right. i use this almost exclusively on typical house shots.
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bigfish

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2006, 10:06:01 AM »
kmanestor22,
I am a high track bowler myself and i am trying to find some layouts, that will quit clipping my thumb hole, do you thing you can help me out. My pap is 5 7/8 direct on midline. Please help if you can. Thanks Shawn

TWOHAND834

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2006, 10:40:41 AM »
I am a high tracker myself and have drilled balls for other high trackers as well.  A good drilling for us, is the pin above the fingers but shifted just outside the ring finger which should put the pin around 4 3/4 from your axis.  Kick the cg outside the grip line about an inch and a half.  That should be just far enough to require a SMALL weight hole.  I emphasize small, simply because a high track will automatically get the ball to flare and read the midlane enough so that "flare increasing" holes are not necessary.  In fact, you have enough rev rate where you may not ever need a flare increasing weight hole.  A large weight hole will only get the ball to read the lane that much faster and create that weaker backend reaction or even a roll out effect.

What you are going to want, are bowling balls with rg in the lower 2.5 range.  With your PAP, I think balls that have 2.46 type RGs unless you really push the ball through the heads, the ball is going to rev so fast that the ball may roll out on the backend.  I believe that you may be better off finding balls with higher diff numbers (.05 - .06) than lower RGs.


Shawn,

I believe that the reason your balls are clipping the thumb hole, is that they are not drilled strong enough.  As a high track, you are going to clip the thumb hole.  The trick, is to lay out the ball so that you get the ball flaring at a quicker rate to get the flare rings off the thumb hole as quickly as possible.  You would benefit from having layouts where the pin and cg are shifted just outside the grip with a small weight hole.  As I mentioned before, high track players are already going to create higher flare potential, so I usually recommend layouts in the 4 3/8 - 5 range pin to PAP and the sooner you want the breakpoint, the farther out you kick the cg.  Keep in mind though, that the farther you kick the cg, the larger weight hole that will be required to get the side weight out.  What kind of layout do you have on your Action and Pyro?
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LuckyLefty

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2006, 10:44:34 AM »
I think the important point in the post above by Two hand is the earlier you want the break point...the more one kicks the cg out!

This implies the pattern must have some midlane oil!

I bowl on a shot where there is little midlane oil and can almost never kick out a cg on this house shot!  Instead to get the ball to skip the midlanes(the lane supplies those) we use drilling shapes like you do...cg back towards the grip center!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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iron chariots 02

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2006, 10:43:56 PM »
first of all i'm glad everyone looked at my profile because i forgot
to list my pap.

kman, meant a drilling with the pin about 4 1/2 to 5 inches away from
my pap instead of approximately six inches away from my pap. sorry
for any confusion that my post caused.

do any of you notice that since a 10:30 drilling bleeds energy faster
than the other two drillings and leaves corner pins as a result when it
has to cross too many dry boards? do you then go to a lower flaring ball
with the same 10:30 drilling or do you also go with a weaker drilling?

for those that also use 12:00 drillngs do you have to play deeper with a
10:30 drilling or a 12:00 drilling on the same lane condition?

does a 10:30 drilling tend to be jumpier at the breakpoint than a 1:30
drilling? the reason that i ask is my most common mistake is i tend to let
up on my ball speed while maintaining the same amount of revs and don't
want to use a drilling that would magnify that mistake.

lucky lefty, the oil in the midlane is my main concern. usually the heads
have a decent amount of oil while oil in the midlanes sometimes is almost
non existent. i'd hate to drill up some new equipment that stands up too
early and hits like a marshmellow when it gets to the pocket if it doesn't
rollout first.

two hands, with the drillng that you are talking about do you mean something
like a 4 1/2 x 5 drilling or 4 1/2 x 3 drilling?

the thing that got me curious about a 10:30 drilling is i looked at jeff
carters arsenal and he doesn't have anything with a 1:30 drilling to handle
drier lane conditions. i thought that even though he changes the surface
of his equipment to match up better to the lanes that a 10:30 drilling
would roll too early unless he polished a ball to 2000 grit and above on
drier patterns. i noticed that his pap indicates that he has more initial
spin than a high tracker which would help him get the ball through dry heads.

JohnP

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2006, 11:26:58 AM »
Have you read the info on "clock" layouts at the link below?  If not, look in Mario's Secrets.  --  JohnP

http://www.rollrite.co.uk/index.php

LuckyLefty

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2006, 11:46:00 AM »
Kalin,

I bowl on that similar shot.

NO one in our house has cg's kicked out hardly at all!

Some of the righties do(more oil in midlanes but just slighly.

I don't find 10:30 drills(cg out drills cover a lot of boards!

But they will use up energy quicker than your cg near grip center drillings.

Currently for wet heads bone dry midlanes.  I'm going more in teh direction where you already are.  Pins up and for me strong and cg's or mass bias towards the thumb or track.  On THIS type of shot!

When I come to a typical house block I go back to my cg out or mass bias out drills drills and with a weighthole on my PAP and with this hook set reaction...I still often enjoy myself!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Strapper_Squared

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2006, 12:05:46 PM »
quote:
i normally use a 1:30 drilling with my cg kicked towards my grip
line because i prefer a smoother reaction and 12:00 drillings tend
to either be too strong at the breakpoint and also tend to hook and
set for me. i'm thinking of trying a 10:30 type drilling and would like
to know if you drilling gurus think that it would be worse than a 12:00
when it comes to a ball overeacting or is it the best control type
drilling?



I think this depends on the particular ball.  Something with a pre-marked mass bias will tend to roll earlier, the further the cg/mb is moved away from the center of grip towards your vertical axis line.  So a 10:30 layout would start up earlier than a 1:30 layout and the 12:00 would be somewhere in between.  On symmetrical core balls, it depends on the size and location of the required weight hole, which is a function of the cg position.


quote:

If all things are equal, will a 10:30 drilling begin
to hit flat as the lanes begin to dry out faster than the other two
drillings because most of the bowling alleys in my area don't use alot
of oil.


In my experience, yes.  These layouts tend to start up earlier, making them good for fresh shots with lots of head/mid-lane oil.  As the oil starts to dry up, these layouts lose energy too quickly, resulting in the ball hitting flat.  If you attempt to move inside, generally these balls don't have enough backend raction to finish (since they are acry in nature due to layout).  Under these conditions, a layout which produces length and stronger backend is favorable as it allows you to move in deeper to catch some head oil, and still finish on the backend.  For me, I like a high pin 4.5 to 5" from PAP and MB in a strong position.



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TWOHAND834

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Re: stupid question about cg placement
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2006, 12:17:55 PM »
4 1/2 x 5 drillings tend to be a little bit of midlane roll with a strong backend.  

4 1/2 x 3 drillings tend to be strong midlane and what I consider a "heavy roll".  

In other words, the 4 1/2 x 5 is going to give you more of the skid/flip type of look to the ball and the 4 1/2 x 3 is going to give you more of a earlier breakpoint with continuation, but with a more controllable move off the breakpoint.

The 4 1/2 x 5 will probably work better from inside lines when you need to open up the lane and the 4 1/2 x 3 will work better when the lanes are fresh and you can play a little more direct line up the track.  The reason for this is that with the 4 1/2 x 3, you lose energy more up front so the ball from an inside angle may not have the angle to carry the corner pins.  It will enter the pocket too flat.  The 4 1/2 x 5 will save some energy for the backend reaction thus creating entry angle to the pocket for more carry.
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Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator

If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager