Author Topic: pin length (Read 13348 times)

Metal_rules · « **on:** August 08, 2015, 06:33:28 AM »

I would like some clarification on this topic. Will longer pin length create more flare? What is the difference from a asymmetric vs symmetric ball with a longer pin? Also with a longer pin I believe there are more options for layouts? Any other info on this will be accepted.

Juggernaut · « **Reply #1 on:** August 08, 2015, 08:26:24 AM »

Quote from: Metal_rules on August 08, 2015, 06:33:28 AM

I would like some clarification on this topic. Will longer pin length create more flare?

No. All pin length does is tell you how far apart the top of the weightblock and the center of gravity are. The pin distance from your axis point (pap) is what governs the amount of a balls flare potential is used.

Quote

What is the difference from a asymmetric vs symmetric ball with a longer pin?

An asymmetric ball has a "built in" preferred spin axis that tends to stay where it is marked on the ball, while a symmetric balls preferred spin axis tends to move into the area of the drilled thumb hole. As long as either of them has a manageable top weight for the drilling you want, you should be able to have a variety of drilling options with either one.

Quote

Also with a longer pin I believe there are more options for layouts? Any other info on this will be accepted.

A longer pin doesn't necessarily give you more drilling options. As a matter of fact, if the center of gravity is offline on an asymmetric, and/or the topweight is too high, it can limit your drilling options.

Do you have a specific drilling in mind? Or maybe a ball you're looking at has "odd" specs? As always, some ball specs lend themselves to versatility in drilling, and some can limit it quite a bit, whether the ball is asymmetric or not.

Metal_rules · « **Reply #2 on:** August 08, 2015, 09:32:38 AM »

Thanks for the info

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #3 on:** August 09, 2015, 12:07:10 PM »

Fascinating topic.

Regarding pin to Pap.

I have always been fascinated with this topic. ESPECIALLY regarding Assymetrics.
I feel quite confident regarding mass bias position and what I am going to see on the lanes with my different settings.

But I believe pin to PAP position and Assymetrics is maybe really only understood by Mo Pinel. I use the attached Mo Pinel document/JPG to invite discussion.

I am always fascinated with the max flare zone illustrated on this document for Assymetrics of 2 3/4 to 6 1/4. Being a high axis rotation player I can often make a ball look like it is going sideways on the back. I am not on a condition that loves that these days! I am fascinated with the closer to 6 1/4 pin position and have been doing some more mass bias under or very near thumb to negative mass bias drillings.

I would very much like to hear more about altering the direction of roll on assymentrics based on closer to 6 1/4 or closer to 2 3/4.

Thanks!

Luckylefty

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 09, 2015, 12:48:49 PM »

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/5/58/Bowling_Ball_Track_Flare_Explained.pdf

Metal_rules · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2015, 06:10:52 AM »

great info --- I always want to learn as much as possible.

J_w73 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2015, 12:50:00 PM »

Quote from: LuckyLefty on August 09, 2015, 12:07:10 PM

Fascinating topic.

Regarding pin to Pap.

I have always been fascinated with this topic. ESPECIALLY regarding Assymetrics.
I feel quite confident regarding mass bias position and what I am going to see on the lanes with my different settings.

But I believe pin to PAP position and Assymetrics is maybe really only understood by Mo Pinel. I use the attached Mo Pinel document/JPG to invite discussion.

I am always fascinated with the max flare zone illustrated on this document for Assymetrics of 2 3/4 to 6 1/4. Being a high axis rotation player I can often make a ball look like it is going sideways on the back. I am not on a condition that loves that these days! I am fascinated with the closer to 6 1/4 pin position and have been doing some more mass bias under or very near thumb to negative mass bias drillings.

I would very much like to hear more about altering the direction of roll on assymentrics based on closer to 6 1/4 or closer to 2 3/4.

Thanks!

Luckylefty

The way I understand it is that the PSA gives the ball another stability(or instability) point. With a symmetrically ball you are going to get stability (no flare ) with the pin on the PAP or 6 3/4 from the PAP. With a symmetrical ball we all know that 3 3/8(mathematical) - 4" pin to pap is going to give you max flare. If you were to drill a symmetrical ball at 1" from the PAP or 5 3/4" from the PAP you would still get very little flare because the ball is close to being stable. But with an asymmetrical ball you could put the pin at these "close to stable" positions and put the PSA in the leverage(3 3/8 - 4") position and the ball is going to flare more because this puts the core in a more unstable position with the PSA at an equal distant from its two stable positions..

I believe this is how you can get more angularity or faster reaction to friction out of an asymmetrical piece because it allows you to use longer pin to paps that will put the core in a higher RG position and yet still have enough flare that the ball will be seeing fresh surface at the dry part of the lane, when normally the flare rings might be too close together to see a fresh surface.

This is the closest I have been able to understand the flare and reaction difference from a physics stand point. I'm sure there is more to it but this seems to make sense.

Whenever you look up the difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical balls you just find the difference in the cores or how placing the PSA in an asymmetrical will change the axis migration path. I have yet to find a good explanation of why they provide a different reaction. This is what I have come up with.

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2015, 01:01:57 PM »

Kidlost,

This paper is amazing and awesome information!

I have already poured over it once in great detail. More study obviously needed!

I believe the attachment below illustrates one of the questions I was most interested in from the first diagram I posted. Does a far away from Pap pin to Pap distance both generate a lot of flare on an assym versus a symmetric? Also, does it really result in a lot of forward roll when going in to the pocket? (as stated in the first Mo document).

The answer was clearly YES regarding flare from the report on the high amount of flare for an Assym at a long pin to Pap drilling of 6 1/4 with a drilling angle of 50 degrees(see the report attached by Kidlost above with Figure 8 as the focus) Versus the very small flare for a Symmetric with an exact dual angle drilling.

Not answered clearly from the report was the forward roll question but maybe it was answered just by a careful study of Figure 8 in the attachment Kidlost included with his post. Note the black line in Figure 8 for the 4 inch pin to Pap drilling. The black line is the axis migration diagram. It is for the 4 inch pin out drilling at an angle leading up to a right handers middle finger. Now note the same line for the 6 1/4 pin to pap. This Axis migration line is now moving horizontally almost through the bowling ball grip center. Does this possibly/probably mean that the ball is moving more forward as it rolls into the pocket? I think maybe.

What would be really interesting at this time would be to see if the other Statement from Mo's above posted flare document regarding Assyms had the exact different diagram for drillings with the pin near 2 3/4. Ie would the Axis migration line of 2 3/4 pin to pap drilling on a strong Assym have more side roll and would this be indicated by a steeper black line of axis migration that goes even more steeply than through the middle finger but instead the bridge?

If any of our members still had blueprint I would love to see a chart of one of these shorter pin to pap diagrams say 2 3/4 of a high mass bias ball and see the side roll illustrated as described. Kidlost, you obviously have a lot of experience with this software. Is that what it looks like?

The other item of great interest to me, are the vector drawings in the bottom left corner of all of these blueprint illustrations? They I believe they are the X Y Z coordinates/vectors and understanding them would be super!

Thanks,

Luckylefty

J_w73 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2015, 01:28:02 PM »

From what I know the axis migration will stay on the same RG contour as the initial axis. That is what determines the axis migration path.

tgknukem · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2015, 01:57:52 PM »

THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SYMMETRIC AND ASYMMETRIC BALLS

A symmetric ball will give the greatest amount of track flare (oil line sparation per ball revolution) when drilled with the pin 3 3/8th" from the PAP, and flare will decrease with shorter or longer Pin to PAP distances. An asymmetric Ball will give the greatest amount of track flare with a Pin to PAP distance of 3 3/8th" AND LONGER, flare will decrease with shorter Pin to PAP distance.

REACTION DIFFERENCES

The only reaction differences between symmetrics and assymetrics occur with Pin to PAP distances of greater than 3 3/8th", the longer the length, the greater the difference. A symmetric ball with a 6 inch pin to PAP will have little or no track flare and it's response to friction (hook) will be later in the pattern when the oil on the ball gets 'erased' by the dry backend. Hook will be delayed farther down the lane on successive shots on a fresh pattern as more and more oil gets carried down the lane. An asymmetric ball with a 6 inch pin to PAP WILL NOT carry oil down the lane on successive shots (other than the small bowtie oil spots) and will respond to friction immmediately when it exits the oil pattern on each shot.
This difference allows someone to drill a ball with a 6" pin so it will be thrown with a lower rev rate (a 6" pin is the high RG core position, which makes it harder for the hand to spin it) for more 'control' but still have the most aggressive backend reaction, without shot changing carrydown.

J_w73 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2015, 02:36:30 PM »

Quote from: tgknukem on August 10, 2015, 01:57:52 PM

THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SYMMETRIC AND ASYMMETRIC BALLS

A symmetric ball will give the greatest amount of track flare (oil line sparation per ball revolution) when drilled with the pin 3 3/8th" from the PAP, and flare will decrease with shorter or longer Pin to PAP distances. An asymmetric Ball will give the greatest amount of track flare with a Pin to PAP distance of 3 3/8th" AND LONGER, flare will decrease with shorter Pin to PAP distance.

REACTION DIFFERENCES

The only reaction differences between symmetrics and assymetrics occur with Pin to PAP distances of greater than 3 3/8th", the longer the length, the greater the difference. A symmetric ball with a 6 inch pin to PAP will have little or no track flare and it's response to friction (hook) will be later in the pattern when the oil on the ball gets 'erased' by the dry backend. Hook will be delayed farther down the lane on successive shots on a fresh pattern as more and more oil gets carried down the lane. An asymmetric ball with a 6 inch pin to PAP WILL NOT carry oil down the lane on successive shots (other than the small bowtie oil spots) and will respond to friction immmediately when it exits the oil pattern on each shot.
This difference allows someone to drill a ball with a 6" pin so it will be thrown with a lower rev rate (a 6" pin is the high RG core position, which makes it harder for the hand to spin it) for more 'control' but still have the most aggressive backend reaction, without shot changing carrydown.

good explanation. I think that falls inline with what I was saying. Though I think the PAP to PSA distance will dictate how much flare you get on a 6" pin to PAP . A PSA at 3 3/8" to PAP will be the most. Closer or farther will be less, just like the pin position on a symmetrical ball. Do you agree?

dR3w · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2015, 03:18:02 PM »

Quote from: J_w73 on August 10, 2015, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: tgknukem on August 10, 2015, 01:57:52 PM
THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SYMMETRIC AND ASYMMETRIC BALLS

A symmetric ball will give the greatest amount of track flare (oil line sparation per ball revolution) when drilled with the pin 3 3/8th" from the PAP, and flare will decrease with shorter or longer Pin to PAP distances. An asymmetric Ball will give the greatest amount of track flare with a Pin to PAP distance of 3 3/8th" AND LONGER, flare will decrease with shorter Pin to PAP distance.

REACTION DIFFERENCES

The only reaction differences between symmetrics and assymetrics occur with Pin to PAP distances of greater than 3 3/8th", the longer the length, the greater the difference. A symmetric ball with a 6 inch pin to PAP will have little or no track flare and it's response to friction (hook) will be later in the pattern when the oil on the ball gets 'erased' by the dry backend. Hook will be delayed farther down the lane on successive shots on a fresh pattern as more and more oil gets carried down the lane. An asymmetric ball with a 6 inch pin to PAP WILL NOT carry oil down the lane on successive shots (other than the small bowtie oil spots) and will respond to friction immmediately when it exits the oil pattern on each shot.
This difference allows someone to drill a ball with a 6" pin so it will be thrown with a lower rev rate (a 6" pin is the high RG core position, which makes it harder for the hand to spin it) for more 'control' but still have the most aggressive backend reaction, without shot changing carrydown.
good explanation. I think that falls inline with what I was saying. Though I think the PAP to PSA distance will dictate how much flare you get on a 6" pin to PAP . A PSA at 3 3/8" to PAP will be the most. Closer or farther will be less, just like the pin position on a symmetrical ball. Do you agree?

If you look at the last chart on Page 13 of "Track Flare Explained", you will see that your last assumption is not true. For increasing PAP to PSA layouts, flare increases beyond the 3-3/8 distance, until suddenly dropping off. That is how I read it at least. Although it is pretty close to your assumption.

J_w73 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2015, 03:38:51 PM »

Quote from: dR3w on August 10, 2015, 03:18:02 PM

If you look at the last chart on Page 13 of "Track Flare Explained", you will see that your last assumption is not true. For increasing PAP to PSA layouts, flare increases beyond the 3-3/8 distance, until suddenly dropping off. That is how I read it at least. Although it is pretty close to your assumption.

I think the chart basically shows what I was saying.. It doesn't give PSA to PAP distance (which I think is a more accurate description of what motion you will get vs the degree system) but I'm assuming the 10 deg would be closest to the PAP and that shows little flare. Then when you get to 30 and 50 degree you get the max flare.. and then at 70 and 90 the flare goes down again.

dR3w · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2015, 03:56:54 PM »

Quote from: J_w73 on August 10, 2015, 03:38:51 PM

Quote from: dR3w on August 10, 2015, 03:18:02 PM

If you look at the last chart on Page 13 of "Track Flare Explained", you will see that your last assumption is not true. For increasing PAP to PSA layouts, flare increases beyond the 3-3/8 distance, until suddenly dropping off. That is how I read it at least. Although it is pretty close to your assumption.

I think the chart basically shows what I was saying.. It doesn't give PSA to PAP distance (which I think is a more accurate description of what motion you will get vs the degree system) but I'm assuming the 10 deg would be closest to the PAP and that shows little flare. Then when you get to 30 and 50 degree you get the max flare.. and then at 70 and 90 the flare goes down again.

It lists PAP to High RG axis. That is the distance to the PSA or MB ... right?

tgknukem · « **Reply #14 on:** August 10, 2015, 03:58:32 PM »

In a symmetric core drilled with a 3 3/8" pin to PAP the core is at a 45deg angle to the original axis at release. Track flare is produced by gravity 'yanking' on this core producing constantly changing axis. This is true for an asymmetric core with a 3 3/8" pin to PAP, but at longer pin to PAPs think of gravity yanking on the mass bias 'core' at longer pin to PAPs.

Author Topic: pin length (Read 13348 times)

Metal_rules

pin length

Juggernaut

Re: pin length

Metal_rules

Re: pin length

LuckyLefty

Re: pin length

kidlost2000

Re: pin length

Metal_rules

Re: pin length

J_w73

Re: pin length

LuckyLefty

Re: pin length

J_w73

Re: pin length

tgknukem

Re: pin length

J_w73

Re: pin length

dR3w

Re: pin length

J_w73

Re: pin length

dR3w

Re: pin length

tgknukem

Re: pin length