Author Topic: What do PAP 's tell about your game (Read 4309 times)

mixnmash · « **on:** March 01, 2007, 12:38:28 PM »

Have a question that I know has been answered here...So after spending the obligatory 20 mins. searching, I can't find what I am looking for. So my question is what do your PAP coordinates say about your game, your roll, conditions you match up better with, etc. I know different drillings and surfaces came overcome a lot but I'm talking about in general. My specs are 5 across and 1/4 down. I am interested in not only my specs but also others. Also any info on what in the release causes the PAP's to be what they are. Thanks.

mixnmash · « **Reply #1 on:** March 02, 2007, 11:42:31 AM »

Thanks for the reply deadbait. I've been bowling for roughly 20 yrs. now and really haven't learned a lot of the technical jargon of ball drilling and layouts, but I am trying to become more familiar with it. I have an inverted track and would like to know more about why it happens, what it means reaction-wise, and if it limits my game in areas such as pin carry or whereabouts I can play the lanes.

My experiences are that while moving deeper I have trouble with the ball not making the turn enough to carry consistently. I am also probably the most tapped person on good shots that I know...my teammates agree. Also, having a ball drilled with the pin under either makes a ball one of my favorites, or sitting on the shelf in my garage because it wants to track over the fingers. It's hit or miss it seems. If anyone can add to this it would be appreciated.

Edited on 3/2/2007 12:40 PM

scotts33 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2007, 12:52:15 PM »

mixnmash,

I am no drilling guru but know enough to be dangerous. I am 4 7/8 over and 0. I am not inverted but track like you do closer to my fingers and away from thumb.

Seems your driller should layout your stuff with the knowledge of your primary track and how the balls roll. As you are inverted the likely chance of your clipping the middle finger has a greater chance.

Also possibly you are not getting balls laid out to use your assets.....more of a detraction. Especially if you keep getting tapped and can't carry well. Tweeners can get caught in no man's land at times not enough revs to play cranker lines and too many revs to play straighter. I get caught there at times.

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Scott

mixnmash · « **Reply #3 on:** March 02, 2007, 01:39:07 PM »

That is exactly it for me...the dreaded no man's land. I am gonna start getting my mail forwarded there. I can put any ball in my hand jump inside and it won't quite show. Usually just enough for a flat 10 or shaker-seven. If I try to square up...4-pin if I'm lucky enough to leave it by itself. Weaker equipment to the dry just dives on me. It's like I watch those inside and outside of me carry their hits and have a nice reaction, but for myself...I have to go into grind-out mode a lot of times.

I mean I can't really complain about carry (read: I bowl 2nite and don't want to jinx myself). Perhaps my newest rock will give me that new ball love or at least give me hope. Thanks for the replies and please keep them coming!

splendorlex · « **Reply #4 on:** March 02, 2007, 03:28:11 PM »

Isn't the 8 pin the only real "tap" in bowling? Where a perfect shot can leave an 8 pin due to a bit of bad luck? I always thought that most other leaves could be explained by the shot not being QUITE there (or, in some cases, a bad rack), even if it does look to be buried in the pocket.
--------------------
Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...

The Rev Zone (blog) http://ryanfinley.bowlspace.com/blog/

mixnmash · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2007, 05:23:12 AM »

Admittedly, when I said spoke of being tapped I was generalizing a bit. It isn't so much any one pin not falling down. I am "Keeper of the back row". My 10 pins leaves are probably the best example. I know how and why they are left...as well as how to adjust to it. The problem that is frustrating is when I throw a good shot, that is a tad wide or tight per se...my carry % is not as good as other bowlers on my teams and/or leagues. I get messengers, but they are more for show than actually taking out pins that remain standing. LOL.

Ten-pins are not the only problem. I also tend to leave a lot of the typical stone 8, 9-pin, and 7-pin leaves. As I said, I know why these are left and how to adjust to carry that particular leave, but if I make a move I leave something else as it seems like I don't have enough if I move left...a little too much to square up. I know when I toss a bad shot and don't expect gimmees, but would like to have some of the area I see other people getting. This leads back to my original post of whether of not different specs allow for more area or carry percentage. I realize on any given day or house my style may match up better than another, Just curious if there are any rules of thumb that may explain it sometimes. Thanks

Sawuser · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2007, 06:29:03 AM »

mix, you don't have a profile & no equipment or layouts listed. You may find more help here to solve your problem if you provide a little more info. I don't think the problem is your PAP or inverted track, it could be the ball and/or drilling choice. I had backrowitus when I dropped ball weight & found out it wasn't the 1lb drop, the ball was actually driving to hard leaving stone pins all over the place. It could be a combination of things, but I'm sure you'll get some good advice here if you list some of your equipment & layouts.
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Righty
Think about it!

It is impossible to govern rightly without God and the Bible. - George Washington

RealBowler · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2007, 11:05:10 AM »

quote:
Define tap!!!!! That's telling you what's going on. You're just not "listening".

For statistically purposes, I only count 10 pin leaves on a true "flush" pocket strike as a tap. That just leaves the "tap" a matter of carry.

I suppose my interpretation of "flush" could be off, but I also track my "high" flush strikes, half pocket strikes, and "light" hit strikes. So, at least for that particular series my interpretation is consistent.
--------------------
Haywood

**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
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EFFEN 10 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2007, 05:39:31 PM »

10 pin leaves are NOT true taps for a RH bowler. A 10 pin leave
is a result of thr ball finishing a little behind the 1 pin. It looks
like it got to the pocket, but finished a tad late.Ball pushes the 3 pin
STRAIGHT back,right side of 3 pin hits outer left side of 6 pin, resulting in
either a ringing or flat 10 pin leave.A TRUE tap for a righty is a STONE 9 pin.
A 1-3 pocket hit ball takes out the 1,3,5 and 9 PIN. Ball drives so hard it never delefts off the 5 to take out the 9.

charlest · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2007, 05:58:33 PM »

quote:
A TRUE tap for a righty is a STONE 9 pin.
A 1-3 pocket hit ball takes out the 1,3,5 and 9 PIN. Ball drives so hard it never delefts off the 5 to take out the 9.

That's a high hit for a right hander, if the ball chops the 5 off the 9. Basically, in the urethane days, or even today, with resin and a lower rev bowler, that hit will still leave the 4/9.

The flush or stoned 8 pin is the true tap. The ball hits the 1/3; the 1 pin, instead of following the line fornt he 2 to 4 to the 7, bounces off the 2 pin into the 5 pin, knocking it straight back. The ball rolls over the space vacated by the 5 pin and cannot knock the 5 pin into the 8 pin. That is the true right hander's tap.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

nd300 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 04, 2007, 05:58:44 PM »

A 9 pin is the result of the ball driving through a little hard,so EFFEN is correct,TO A POINT.The 9 is NOT a tap.That's the lanes telling you that they are starting to break down and you need to adjust by moving,changing balls,hand position,etc.
The only real true tap for a right hander is the eight pin.Again,EFFEN is right that the ball only hits the 1-3-5-9 pins.The eight ipn is the result of the ball chopping of 5 straight back instead of sending the 5 pin into the eight.
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Chris
Lane#1--nothing else hits like 'em.

charlest · « **Reply #11 on:** March 04, 2007, 06:07:48 PM »

quote:
...
Ten-pins are not the only problem. I also tend to leave a lot of the typical stone 8, 9-pin, and 7-pin leaves. As I said, I know why these are left and how to adjust to carry that particular leave, but if I make a move I leave something else as it seems like I don't have enough if I move left...a little too much to square up. I know when I toss a bad shot and don't expect gimmees, but would like to have some of the area I see other people getting. This leads back to my original post of whether of not different specs allow for more area or carry percentage. I realize on any given day or house my style may match up better than another, Just curious if there are any rules of thumb that may explain it sometimes. Thanks

mixnmash,

I have a release that creates an inverted track at times. I believe your problem is that your drill or surface prep is off my a slight margin. If during a 3 game league set, you're constantly leaving 7s, 8s, 9s or 10s, you either have the wrong ball in your hand or you're playing the wrong line. In fact, that should be a sign for you to make some change, immediately.

The more consistent your release, the easier it is make that judgement. I've seen pros throw 3 balls, one strike and 2 off hits, leaving a different single pin each time, and then they immediately go for another ball. If you're good at hand release changes or ball speed changes, you can try those too. Not being that consistent, it may take me 5 - 8 balls or a whole game to realize the same thing.

I think your driller needs to take into account your PAP.

FYI the fact that you're 5" over also means you have a decent amount of tilt, probably in the range of 18 - 20 degrees. How your ball is drilled can make a big diffeerence. The operative word is "can"; some oil patterns, like house blended shots, allow most people to use almost any "normal" drill.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

chitown · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2007, 09:15:17 AM »

quote:
I have learned (thru bad layouts and lots of money) that as as hi-track player, you can exploit the fact and use it to your advantage that you have more forward roll than most bowlers by using the correct layouts. You also need to know that all the forward roll can get you into trouble when the lanes start sparking. You'll notice most hi-track folks will start having trouble getting the corners out.

As hi-track players, we do not need help getting the ball rolling, but we need help getting the ball down the lane. Length layouts are a must with pins in the 4 to 5" range. CG's, PSA's ect should be pulled in towards the thumb. Most of my layouts are 4x3.

Stay away from the infamous 5-3/4" layout with the CG swung out. People will tell you that this is the best skid/snap reaction available. For a lo-track, I bet this is true. For a hi-tracker, that layout results in skid/skid or snap/snap. The big pin gets the ball way down the lane. The CG swung out gives the quick aggressive move that is too aggressive for a ball that already has forward roll built into it from the release. The end result is too much hook, move inside, fan the headpin.

For the most part, stay away from lo-pin layouts and CG's swung past the stacked position. Note that they will work provided that you have a ball with a long pin (say 4"+) and the weight hole MUST be in the lower quad of the ball. Otherwise you chance flipping over the fingers. You pro shop can drill the finger holes deeper to force the weight hole down. This layout gets the ball rolling sooner, which as a GENERAL rule for a hi-tracker, you don't need.

In the end, it's about getting a look that meets your eye, speed and revs.

--------------------
Righty
Speed: average 16.5 (Quibica)
Revs: med-high to high
Axis: 5-3/4" w/ 0' tilt ( hi-track )

See Profile for arsenal

Wow I never looked at it like this. I have a high track. I also have a samll amount of tilt for my A-GAME. However one of my favorite layouts is pin above the bridge 5.5" from pap, Cg kicked right to 1oz and no balance hole. This layout gives me the length I need and the back end hook is big. However I get very good pin action and never noticed a lot of corner pins.

Most of my bowling balls have the pin 5.5" from my pap above the bridge. I do have one bowling ball with the pin 4.5" from pap and the CG stacked. This is my control ball. It flare a lot but early which helps it layoff on the back end. This gives me a lot of break point control.

I have had a lot of problems with asymmetrical bowling balls. I have found that having the MB in the #2 strong position(1" right of thumb) is not good for me. This MB position makes it hard to control the break point. I have found that placing the MB in an early roll position (next to VAL) gives me a much better reaction that is controllable. Now one would think that with an early roll type of release this type of layout would not be good but it is for me. Now on symmetrical bowling balls early roll layouts suck. I don't really understand why this is but it works.

I now know what layouts work for me. I too have spent a lot of money and time trying to figure out what kinds of bowling balls and layouts work for my game.

Good reply above. I agree with a lot of it except for the 5 3/4" layout with the CG swung out. That is a great layout for me and doesn't cause the ball to go too long.
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HAMMER NO MERCY is Un-freaking real! Using this ball is like cheating!

chitown · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2007, 09:12:56 AM »

quote:

CHITOWN,

I just never have had any luck with that 5-3/4 inch layout. The balls is always to jumpy at the breakpoint for me. My eye likes to see a smoother transition.

I hear you. This layout will can produce a flippy reaction on certain equipment. I have found that this layout works great on stronger mid-lane type of bowling balls. Now this pin location would not be good for me on a ball that has almost zero mid-lane read and big back end. Then it's just too flippy at the break point.

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HAMMER NO MERCY is Un-freaking real! Using this ball is like cheating!

fishbowler · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2007, 02:17:10 PM »

I am sorry but I have to include the occassional stone 7 pin. I have had as solid of a hit as you can have and the 7 pin is left, stone solid. that and the 8 pin. I have left solid 7's as often at one house as solid 8's, same hit and angle. sucks.
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"I'd quit this game if I thought anyone would give a damn!"

"If Fishing is a Sport, well then you're looking at an athlete!"

Author Topic: What do PAP 's tell about your game (Read 4309 times)

mixnmash

What do PAP 's tell about your game

mixnmash

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

scotts33

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

mixnmash

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

splendorlex

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

mixnmash

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

Sawuser

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

RealBowler

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

EFFEN 10

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

charlest

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

nd300

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

charlest

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

chitown

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

chitown

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game

fishbowler

Re: What do PAP 's tell about your game