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Author Topic: Pin on PAP  (Read 10218 times)

Baboon

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Pin on PAP
« on: November 01, 2009, 03:13:10 AM »
What type of reaction does putting the pin on the PAP accomplish?
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Juggernaut

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 12:18:05 PM »
Early rolling, smooth arcing
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the pooh

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 12:18:56 PM »
Little to no flare. Very early roll. Small hook. Usually little backend, depending on bowler''s release and condition. Sometimes can be good for smoothing out over/under conditions. Is supposed to be good for playing more outside or gutter shots,probably because of the smoothness and lack of backend. I, personally have not had very good luck with this layout. It hits very weak, usually.
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Edited on 11/1/2009 1:39 PM
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cheech

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 12:52:51 PM »
i find this type of layout is better on sport patterns especially playing way out. i find on house shots the ball burns up too quick and hits like a pancake unless your bowling on a very slick lane surface which everything else is being too angular and unpredictable on. the layout smooths it out and reacts like a regular ball
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Edited on 11/1/2009 1:54 PM
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JustRico

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 12:58:05 PM »
Deviation from leverage or 3 3/8" from PAP decreases flare and changes shape. Closer to PAP responds earlier and smoother. Closer to (or farther away from) PAP increaces length and smoother.
Safe guard placing a pin in the PAP or in the track, as you risk reverse flaring. It is better to keep the pin 1" from the PAP and 6" from PAP. You will not notice any difference between 1" and 0" from PAP.
You can also place the pin 1 to 1 1/2" from PAP and place a weight hole in the PAP.
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dursty

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2009, 08:07:56 PM »
It's great drill to have if your a tournament bowler and are bowling on sport conditions.  I like the 2" x 4" which flares just a little (as opposed a 0" inch pin). Keep in mind for most house patterns it's not particular useful unless the backends are screaming.   With that layout your just not get much help as far as getting the ball to climb the hill of oil in the middle of the lane and carry is going to suffer.  But on patterns where you need to control the back of the lane and get the ball to roll smooth of the end of the pattern this is it.  80% of the time I use it playing right of 10, and a good part of that playing up 1 to 3 on cheetah.  Trick is just know that they this type of layout isn't for looping the lane, it's for playing straighter angles through the front and using the excessive friction to your advantage.  The ball reaction you'll get won't fool you, once you plaque a 10 you know that you can switch out to something with more down lane reaction.  I would try a 2x4 as it will be a little less condition specific than a pure pin on the axis layout.
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dizzyfugu

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 02:29:51 AM »
quote:
It's great drill to have if your a tournament bowler and are bowling on sport conditions.  I like the 2" x 4" which flares just a little (as opposed a 0" inch pin). Keep in mind for most house patterns it's not particular useful unless the backends are screaming.   With that layout your just not get much help as far as getting the ball to climb the hill of oil in the middle of the lane and carry is going to suffer.  But on patterns where you need to control the back of the lane and get the ball to roll smooth of the end of the pattern this is it.  80% of the time I use it playing right of 10, and a good part of that playing up 1 to 3 on cheetah.  Trick is just know that they this type of layout isn't for looping the lane, it's for playing straighter angles through the front and using the excessive friction to your advantage.  The ball reaction you'll get won't fool you, once you plaque a 10 you know that you can switch out to something with more down lane reaction.  I would try a 2x4 as it will be a little less condition specific than a pure pin on the axis layout.


Agree 100%! If you want control and no over-reaction, a 2x4 layout will be the ticket. Smooth, early roll, but still some hook. Very little back end, and on a THS or short oil you need to put some hand into the ball to prevent it from rolling out. But on slick surfaces, this is a very good choice. A nice special purpose piece.

Here's a video of mine, comparing my half-axis Power Groove with my pin-above-ring-CG-stacked Renegade, two quite comparable balls:

http://de.video.yahoo.com/watch/5346519/14091083

Pin on PAP would end up in a rolly turd.
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kmanestor22

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 06:04:56 AM »
quote:
Deviation from leverage or 3 3/8" from PAP decreases flare and changes shape. Closer to PAP responds earlier and smoother. Closer to (or farther away from) PAP increaces length and smoother.
Safe guard placing a pin in the PAP or in the track, as you risk reverse flaring. It is better to keep the pin 1" from the PAP and 6" from PAP. You will not notice any difference between 1" and 0" from PAP.
You can also place the pin 1 to 1 1/2" from PAP and place a weight hole in the PAP.
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This is only half right.  Yes, 3-3/8" pin to PAP will maximize flare.  I will not dispute that.  But to say that deviation from 3-3/8" will lengthen/shorten/smoothen reaction is highly misleading and in most cases today just plain wrong.

You have to take into account the core in the ball and the specs of the bowler to make those assertions.  Combine 3-3/8" pin to PAP, a high rev rate bowler, and a 6"-7"+ flare core.  In this situation, the ball overflares, providing much weaker reaction (simulated carrydown as the ball rolls over previous flares) than a 5" pin to PAP drilling.  Lower flare drillings can result in stronger reactions.  Maximum flare does not always equal maximum reaction.

Also, I agree with keeping the pin between 1"-6" pin to PAP.
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six pack

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2009, 02:22:12 PM »
thought I'd chime in on this one.I have a hammer pain with a 1 1/2" pin from pap that flares 5" and is real strong in the mid lane and has a strong smooth backend.great ball for med-heavy with a non descript pattern.for a comparison I have a widow venom with a 5x5 layout that flares 6"+ with the usual length and big backend move.I've been considering a rayzer with the same lay out as the pain for lite oil as I don't want a flippy ball.
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nord

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2019, 07:34:24 PM »
Below is a series of videos showing what a ball with pin on PAP looks like going down the lane and how such a layout is designed to be used.

The big white dot is the pin placed directly on my PAP.
The ball is the Brunswick True Motion urethane.
The Axis Weight Layout, as it is called, is perfect for playing from the outside part of the lane and going down an in direct to the pins, or straight up the boards.
The layout causes the ball to be as smooth as silk and sweep in with maximum control and actually lots of hitting power!

Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MOqvs9OnQg

Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs8iBRdIrm0

Video 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irNxl6WnRHI
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BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2019, 10:16:05 AM »
OP was last active in 2014.  Danger with pin on pap is possibility of reverse flare which is why Mo Pinel recommends at least 1" AFAIK.  (Edit:  Rico above recommends same thing and guy has one of the most famous drillings named after him).  With your style might be able to get away with things others can't.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 10:32:19 AM by BowlingForDonuts »
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Impending Doom

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2019, 10:56:45 AM »
Quote from: BowlingForDonuts on November 13, 2019, 10:16:05 AM
OP was last active in 2014.  Danger with pin on pap is possibility of reverse flare which is why Mo Pinel recommends at least 1" AFAIK.  (Edit:  Rico above recommends same thing and guy has one of the most famous drillings named after him).  With your style might be able to get away with things others can't.

Agreed. I only had one ball with a pin an inch from the pap, a Track Money. You couldn't make that ball overreact. Ever.
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avabob

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Re: Pin on PAP
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2019, 11:51:55 AM »
A couple of points.  First everything stated about ball reaction is correct
  In addition I have noticed that small changes in hand position have a much bigger pact on axis rotation with a pin on axis drilling. 

Also it is my understsnding that the statement about differential applies to symetrical cores, not asymetricals.  For adyms, the differential does not decrease as the pin distance increases beyond 3 3/8.
 
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