Author Topic: Pin Placement (Read 4210 times)

sutherngent · « **on:** June 09, 2010, 08:32:34 PM »

Please forgive what may seem like a stupid question, but Ive been away from the sport for a long time (12 yrs) and am still learning...again. What type of ball reaction difference does pin placement above or below the fingers have?

No Revs00300 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2010, 06:42:37 AM »

Generally Pin up's have a later break point, and pin downs start hooking earlier. But there is alot more too it than just pin placement.

Jock · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2010, 10:15:31 AM »

I'll probably get shot down for this, but here goes.

I think that unless you're a VERY good bowler, it doesn't make that much difference for you.
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I've upped my average, so up yours!

AngloBowler · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:01:29 PM »

What makes you say that Jock?
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Reporting from England

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:11:01 PM »

Having the pin down typically smmothens out the backend reaction and pin up tends to make the backend more jumpy. Not too sure about the rolling faster part as I have seen balls with pins at 5 inches from PAP, and down below the fingers, still give good length before transition from skid to roll. I think it has more to do with the transition from roll to hook and the breakpoint shape.
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!

BKloss · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:14:04 PM »

quote:
I'll probably get shot down for this, but here goes.

I think that unless you're a VERY good bowler, it doesn't make that much difference for you.
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I've upped my average, so up yours!

I would tend to somewhat agree, if you can not repeat shots, then pin up might flip one time, if you spin it it will skate and not move. Unless you are repeating shots it is all irrelevant because one time the ball will be 3" from PAP, 2 shots later it could be 6" from PAP.
Just my thoughts
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stopncrank · « **Reply #6 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:15:00 PM »

Quote

I'll probably get shot down for this, but here goes.

I think that unless you're a VERY good bowler, it doesn't make that much difference for you.
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I've upped my average, so up yours![/quot

Totally disagree with this statement. One example would be a speed dominate player looking for a ball for oily lanes. I would highly suggest a pin down layout versus a pin up one based on the player being speed dominate already, plus the lack of friction because of oily conditions. The pin down ball will pick up sooner even with the high speed of the player, whereas the pin up ball would more than likely push too far down the lane.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

AngloBowler · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:18:13 PM »

quote:
I would tend to somewhat agree, if you can not repeat shots, then pin up might flip one time, if you spin it it will skate and not move. Unless you are repeating shots it is all irrelevant because one time the ball will be 3" from PAP, 2 shots later it could be 6" from PAP.
Just my thoughts

Surely though, if the bowler is doing this, the position of any layout is largely irrelevant?

I think any question related to pin placement as it affects ball reaction has to use the starting assumption that the bowler is able to consistently deliver the ball so that the PAP has some kind of meaning.

I would disagree with the contention that a bowler must be "very good" to discern a difference between pin up and pin down layouts. But then, that kind of hinges on what one would define as very good doesn't it?
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Reporting from England

stopncrank · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:31:21 PM »

quote:
quote:
I'll probably get shot down for this, but here goes.

I think that unless you're a VERY good bowler, it doesn't make that much difference for you.
--------------------
I've upped my average, so up yours!

I would tend to somewhat agree, if you can not repeat shots, then pin up might flip one time, if you spin it it will skate and not move. Unless you are repeating shots it is all irrelevant because one time the ball will be 3" from PAP, 2 shots later it could be 6" from PAP.
Just my thoughts
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So basically 99% percent of drillings out there are irrelevant(including you and i) because our Pap varies. Most every bowler's(including PBA members) PAP varies, expecially someone like Norm Duke who can change releases at the blink of an eye. So how would you suggest a Pro Shop operator go about drilling a ball for a new bowler?
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

BKloss · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:49:15 PM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
I''ll probably get shot down for this, but here goes.

I think that unless you''re a VERY good bowler, it doesn''t make that much difference for you.
--------------------
I''ve upped my average, so up yours!

I would tend to somewhat agree, if you can not repeat shots, then pin up might flip one time, if you spin it it will skate and not move. Unless you are repeating shots it is all irrelevant because one time the ball will be 3" from PAP, 2 shots later it could be 6" from PAP.
Just my thoughts
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So basically 99% percent of drillings out there are irrelevant(including you and i) because our Pap varies. Most every bowler''s(including PBA members) PAP varies, expecially someone like Norm Duke who can change releases at the blink of an eye. So how would you suggest a Pro Shop operator go about drilling a ball for a new bowler?
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

I can guarantee you my PAP does not deviate as much as 3", but with an inconsistent release, pin up/pin down does not mean anything. But I think you just proved a point with the Norm Duke statement, HE changes his release for a desired reaction, He is the one wanting to change it, not by pure lack of ability or BASIC mechanics.

As fas as a new bowler, "Pin Up" and the only reason for that is to reduce the chance to track over any holes. But once again it is a "safe position" until they can understand the basics. But without a consistent release again you could never determine a PAP because it would change so pin up/pin down is irrelevant because who knows what thier vertical movement may be.
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Edited on 6/10/2010 12:50 PM

stopncrank · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2010, 02:53:46 PM »

Whether it deviates 3" or 1", trust me it deviates...which is my point. Norm deviates it because he is good enough to change it and be consistent 99% of the time with it.

Whereas you and i being amateurs, ours as well as the majority of bowlers out there today will fluctuate.

So my point is everybodies PAP fluctuates from shot to shot, so at what skill level does it stop fluctuating? At what skill level does it take to reconize the differences between a pin up vs. pin down ball? Based on this theory of untill a certain skill level is attained drilling is irrelevant, it doesnt matter how a person drills their stuff till say 220 average?

If a bowler throws 10 shots, and 6 of them roll perfect at a PAP measured 5" over 1/2" up,and the other 4 vary to a degree, shouldnt his ball be drilled assuming his PAP is 5" over and 1/2" up for those 6 out of 10 shots?
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

stopncrank · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2010, 03:08:55 PM »

Gotcha, its been forever and a day since i worked in a pro shop, and i was taught way back when to have the bowler throw a series of 10 shots, and go with the pap that was repeated the most out of those 10 shots.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Author Topic: Pin Placement (Read 4210 times)

sutherngent

Pin Placement

No Revs00300

Re: Pin Placement

Jock

Re: Pin Placement

AngloBowler

Re: Pin Placement

TWOHAND834

Re: Pin Placement

BKloss

Re: Pin Placement

stopncrank

Re: Pin Placement

AngloBowler

Re: Pin Placement

stopncrank

Re: Pin Placement

BKloss

Re: Pin Placement

stopncrank

Re: Pin Placement

stopncrank

Re: Pin Placement