BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: thedjs on June 04, 2013, 12:39:55 PM
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I know this has been discussed before but I can't find it.
What would be the difference in reactions if a ball is drilled with the pin above the fingers, to the side of the fingers or below the fingers?
Thanks for the help.
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See Locator Pin Position:
http://www.bowlingfans.com/jeff/ballreactionbasics.html (http://www.bowlingfans.com/jeff/ballreactionbasics.html)
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There is very little relativity to placement of the pin in regards to the gripping holes other than effecting core dynamics...it's all in regards to pin to pap and relevance to leverage. It's all deviations from leverage and how it effects the flare potential and shape,
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There is very little relativity to placement of the pin in regards to the gripping holes other than effecting core dynamics...it's all in regards to pin to pap and relevance to leverage. It's all deviations from leverage and how it effects the flare potential and shape,
I should have mentioned that distance from the pap would be the same just a difference as to where the pin was located. Either up, middle or down.
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There is very little relativity to placement of the pin in regards to the gripping holes other than effecting core dynamics...it's all in regards to pin to pap and relevance to leverage. It's all deviations from leverage and how it effects the flare potential and shape,
I should have mentioned that distance from the pap would be the same just a difference as to where the pin was located. Either up, middle or down.
Up, middle, or down? How vague...
Read up here -> http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts)
If you have any questions after you scan through that, get back to us...
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Again it's deviation from leverage (flare decreases) and shape change....
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There is very little relativity to placement of the pin in regards to the gripping holes other than effecting core dynamics...it's all in regards to pin to pap and relevance to leverage. It's all deviations from leverage and how it effects the flare potential and shape,
I should have mentioned that distance from the pap would be the same just a difference as to where the pin was located. Either up, middle or down.
Up, middle, or down? How vague...
Read up here -> http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts)
If you have any questions after you scan through that, get back to us...
Pin up, to the side, and down wasn't too "vague" for the drill sheet made for the Yeti:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/a/a4/Radical_Symmetrical.pdf
Per the pdf, there are Mo Pinel suggested drillings for the Yeti labeled:
"Pin under - No balance hole"
"Pin over - No balance hole"
"Pin beside with balance hole"
There are no dual angles and each layout has characteristics of what the ball will do - generally speaking, which is what the OP wanted in the first place...
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There is very little relativity to placement of the pin in regards to the gripping holes other than effecting core dynamics...it's all in regards to pin to pap and relevance to leverage. It's all deviations from leverage and how it effects the flare potential and shape,
I should have mentioned that distance from the pap would be the same just a difference as to where the pin was located. Either up, middle or down.
Up, middle, or down? How vague...
Read up here -> http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts)
If you have any questions after you scan through that, get back to us...
Pin up, to the side, and down wasn't too "vague" for the drill sheet made for the Yeti:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/a/a4/Radical_Symmetrical.pdf
Per the pdf, there are Mo Pinel suggested drillings for the Yeti labeled:
"Pin under - No balance hole"
"Pin over - No balance hole"
"Pin beside with balance hole"
There are no dual angles and each layout has characteristics of what the ball will do - generally speaking, which is what the OP wanted in the first place...
But those descriptors don't always equal the same thing for different balls and different bowlers... That's the point I'm trying to make.
Things aren't always that simple - see attached image.
Why not post another side of the story?
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/8/86/Core_Shape_Determines_Motion.pdf (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/8/86/Core_Shape_Determines_Motion.pdf)
Once you single out a specific ball, especially one as unique as the Yeti, you can begin to see the how's and why's of ball motion.
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Lol! Dam guys.....i'm sure all you extremely knowledgeable bowling afficionados have thoroughly confused the original poster.
Could'nt you have, like, given him some very general, and understandable comments regarding his hook shape? ::)
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What part of layouts are dictated by pin to pap distance and deviating from leverage or 3 3/8" changes the shape and lessens the overall flare potential is that confusing?
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Bowling balls have come a long ways. If youve ever been to a demo day event you will see several balls laid out two or maybe three different ways. Pin up, pin down, and maybe inbetween the two.
For most bowlers the pin will be in the 4-5.5" range from their pap and on most conditions the ball will roll and react as it is intended to based on the core and coverstock. It shows how versatile the bowling balls really are for bowlers on the conditions they most commonly face.
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Perhaps we've forgotten that this is NOT bowlingchat.primadonna.net. It's (in theory at least) a more relaxed board of varying levels where people can get answers, even if generic, and be shown that there is more to learn should they so desire.
Many people still appreciate that. Let's bring them in, not chase them away.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih45VXg8tP8
Here maybe this will give a general idea of what can happen.
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Don't even mention bowlingchat.net. All those guys love to smell their own farts.
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Don't even mention bowlingchat.net. All those guys love to smell their own farts.
MY BRAND!
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What part of layouts are dictated by pin to pap distance and deviating from leverage or 3 3/8" changes the shape and lessens the overall flare potential is that confusing?
WOW!!! First of all....thank you Lefty50 for stating what I thought was very obvious!
No disrespect to you, JustRico......I know that you know your stuff! I also know what you are talking about in regards to the statement above. I don't believe the original poster knows all the definitions of the terms you used.....just by reading how he posted his original question. Sometimes we have to slow down, and kind meet people where they are at in understanding. That is all I was trying to say.
Whew. Sorry if I am out of line. Please continue with the conversation.
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Wow guys, way to not help a newer guy out at all. I dont like posting much but i hate to see a logical question go unanswered after two pages of unhelpful comments, so heres to the original poster, whose asking what the raection shape difference would be by having a pin up a pin down and one in between, and he did say all of which would be the same pin to pap distance, so i dont see how you guys can argue that theres not enough info to at the very least provide a vague but accurate answer.
Answer: keep in mind theres two different core shaped balls, sym and asym... But for this question it doesnt matter since all your doing is changing the VAL angle. The pin up would have the smallest VAL angle, the pin down the largest, and obviously the pin inbetween would be somewhere in the middle in terms of VAL angles. The VAl angle controls the length of the second transition of ball motion. Therefore with all other variables being identical, especially pin to pap, as stated. The pin up (smallest VAL angle also known by storm as pin buffer) will transition the fastest. Meaning its going to go from its hook phase to its roll phase the quickest, which often times can look like more of a hockey stick, or asharper angular motion off the break point, but sometimes will lack continuation thru the pins when not used on the right combination of lane surface, oil, or ball choice.. Thepin down ball (largest of the three VAL angles or pin buffers) will transition from hook to roll the slowest which will be a smoother more continues arc many times vs the snappier quicker transition that was seen with the pin up.. And then obviously the pin inbetween will provide a reaction inbetween the two.
Hope that helps
Sean
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Ya know what gets me...is someone that is new to the game comes to ballreviews of all places to ask a question and when answered, still question it.
I'm not sure how much easier an answer can e given....just because someone doesn't agree does not mean it wasn't answered.
Using terms that have been made up does less good than keeping it simple....pin to pap distance dictate amount of flare potential...plain & simple. Deviating from leverage or 3 3/8" changes flare as well as shape...not sure how much simpler that can be said....CUTS DOWN FLARE and CHANGES SHAPE...closer to pap is going to be earlier and smoother with less flare...farther from pap is going to be a later & quicker response and a hockey stick shape. Using cool terms mean nothing unless YOU'VE done the actual research instead of reading it...
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If you are bowling on a house shot with built in shape or friction, layouts are less pronounced that on flatter patterns...the average to above average bowler would not truly be able to see the difference by shifting a pin an inch or less in height as you are still effecting a very close portion of the core, thus not truly changing it.
Dual angles are great in aiding in laying out a bowling ball but is not absolute by no means...it is one more way to help in confusing bowlers by changing terminology...understand ball motion & reaction before you start preaching it...
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If you are bowling on a house shot with built in shape or friction, layouts are less pronounced that on flatter patterns...the average to above average bowler would not truly be able to see the difference by shifting a pin an inch or less in height as you are still effecting a very close portion of the core, thus not truly changing it.
Dual angles are great in aiding in laying out a bowling ball but is not absolute by no means...it is one more way to help in confusing bowlers by changing terminology...understand ball motion & reaction before you start preaching it...
While i agree with this and your earlier comments.... I can only say that i hope you are not referring to me....
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The poster said that the pin to PAP would be the same for all three pin positions. In that case the change in reaction would have everything to do with where the pin is in relation to the fingers and thumb hole. Especially on a symmetric ball. A pin above the fingers will have the finger and thumb holes take mass out of the side of the core and create more asymmetry in the ball. It will increase the differential and should create a bit more flare and should get the ball to react quicker to friction and rev up faster when it encounters friction. A pin below the fingers, say at the midline, will have the finger and thumb holes take mass out of the top of the core. That will lower the RG, lessen flare a bit, and create a smoother transition as the ball encounters friction. The pin level with the fingers would create a reaction somewhere in the middle. The difference in the reaction between the pin above and below the fingers will be greater with a longer pin to PAP. Say 5.5" vs 2.5"
This is just a general description of the reactions without a weight hole. If you have to pin a weight hole in the ball it could change the reaction of the ball significantly.
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sorry sean mullins. I didn't see your answer until after my post. We said pretty much the same thing. You are correct about the angle to the VAL but I just want to say that it is where the holes are in relation to the core that changes how the ball will react for a given pin to pap. The angle to the VAL is just a way to describe where the pin is on the layout.
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Yes holes are a factor because there location changes the shape of the core. There relation in reference to the pin location determines if the fingers and thumb will take out a little or a lot of core. The pin location minus the holes is still a factor along with the pin distance to pap.
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I'm a lower track player and when I drill a ball with the pin 3-3/8" from my pap it places the pin either above or below my ring finger. I don't pay much attention to drill sheets cause it's based off different axis coordinates and I think it confuses a lot of people that don't have the full understanding of pin to pap and axis coordinates. If you draw a half circle towards grip center with a compass that's 3-3/8" from your pap you'll see all the variables of different layout options. The pin is still 3-3/8"/leverage and it can be pin up, pin down, or even with fingers or in my case it's pin in ring finger with my axis coordinates. You're reshaping the cores by where you're placing the gripping holes and weight hole, if you're using one. I like to place a piece of tape on my pap, if I not using a weight hole there. I watch the tape/or hole as it goes down the lane and watch the progression as it goes down the lane. I can also change lines and get the ball to the friction earlier or later and see the difference as the ball transitions down the lane. For me it's easier to understand the ball, layout, weight hole or lack of when you can see it with you eyes and watching the transition. Just my $.02, Bruce
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No worries, he wasn't, he was referring to earlier posts.
If you are bowling on a house shot with built in shape or friction, layouts are less pronounced that on flatter patterns...the average to above average bowler would not truly be able to see the difference by shifting a pin an inch or less in height as you are still effecting a very close portion of the core, thus not truly changing it.
Dual angles are great in aiding in laying out a bowling ball but is not absolute by no means...it is one more way to help in confusing bowlers by changing terminology...understand ball motion & reaction before you start preaching it...
While i agree with this and your earlier comments.... I can only say that i hope you are not referring to me....