Post by: boondoggle on April 12, 2005, 05:47:44 PM
Edited on 4/19/2005 11:38 AM
Post by: charlest on April 13, 2005, 06:38:49 AM
The higher you move the pin the higher you make the drilled RG of the ball and the longer the ball will go down the lane before it starts to hook. Keep in mind that this added length is ONLY in comparison to the same ball drilled with a lower pin. (As an aside, the higher the pin's position, in general, the higher the flare's bowtie position will be. That's why a high track person needs a higher pin position - so that flare does not clip the middle finger, when the track begins to flare.)
Edited on 4/13/2005 6:33 AM
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 13, 2005, 06:43:59 AM
however.......FOR INSTANCE....a 3 inch pin to pap distance, whether it be up or down will still flare the same amount,...it's just done w/ the core in a slightly different position......
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JEFF
"I don't want to be a butt-inski, but what exactly is going on here ?"
Post by: T-GOD on April 13, 2005, 08:16:56 AM
quote:
The higher you move the pin the higher you make the drilled RG of the ball
quote:If the pin is the same distance from the PAP, whether it be up or down, how does the higher pin to the grip center, have a higher RG, vs the lower pin..? =:^D
a 3 inch pin to pap distance, whether it be up or down will still flare the same amount
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 13, 2005, 02:06:01 PM
quote:
If the pin is the same distance from the PAP, whether it be up or down, how does the higher pin to the grip center, have a higher RG, vs the lower pin..? =:^D
pin down , when drilling you'd be shortening the core, thus lowering RG,...pin up, you'd be drilling into the side of the core maintaining height/rg of the core......in general of course.....
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JEFF
"I don't want to be a butt-inski, but what exactly is going on here ?"
Edited on 4/13/2005 2:06 PM
Post by: T-GOD on April 13, 2005, 08:44:59 PM
The only time the RG changes is when the distance of the pin to PAP changes.
When it's closer to the PAP, the RG is lowered.
When the pin is farther from the PAP, the RG is raised.
If the pin is the same distance from the PAP, but higher above the midline in one and lower in the other, the RG is the same. =:^D
Post by: stanski on April 14, 2005, 12:51:34 AM
quote:quote:
If the pin is the same distance from the PAP, no matter where it is on the ball, the RG will remain the same.
The only time the RG changes is when the distance of the pin to PAP changes.
When it's closer to the PAP, the RG is lowered.
When the pin is farther from the PAP, the RG is raised.
If the pin is the same distance from the PAP, but higher above the midline in one and lower in the other, the RG is the same. =:^D
so when you drill a hole in the ball, the RG does not change???
do tell...
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kotm
"awaiting the hour of reprisal, your time slips away..."
o god... not another t-god moment... so are we still hand cranking drills over there t-god?
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stanski
Post by: BackToBasics on April 14, 2005, 02:21:41 PM
quote:
How do you think the ball gets a diff. factor?
The highest Rg in the ball is when the core is standing up.
The lowest Rg in the ball is when the core is down (pin on PAP)
So, by doing that ie a ball with a 2.5 high rg and a 2.48 low
Rg, the differential is .02... 2.5 when the pin is 6 3/4" from PAP,
2.48 when pin is on PAP.
One thing you fail to mention is that these values are without holes. Once the holes are drilled, the angle (i.e how far above the midline) and resulting mass removal changes the RGs and differentials.
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Anthony Chapman
Track International Staff
Turbo Grips 2-N-1 Staff
Edited on 4/14/2005 2:19 PM
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 14, 2005, 02:32:37 PM
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JEFF
"I don't want to be a butt-inski, but what exactly is going on here ?"
Post by: laufaye on April 14, 2005, 03:03:34 PM
I will think deeply tonite and let you guys know my thought.
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Laufaye
Post by: laufaye on April 15, 2005, 03:08:01 AM
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Laufaye
Post by: T-GOD on April 15, 2005, 08:04:37 AM
quote:Guys, you're taking my statements out of context. Yes, we all know that when you drill holes in a ball the RG changes.
The only time the RG changes is when the distance of the pin to PAP changes.
But, my statement was in regards to talking about the core position differences, referring to charlest's comment on pin positions relative to the midline. It had nothing to do with drilling of holes in the ball.
Also, you can place the pin, above or below the midline, so as not to hit the core, so we'll leave those comments about hitting the core out of the equation.
So, back to my statement, with regards to placing the pin higher up or lower, relative to the midline, leaving drilling the holes out of the equation.
If the pin is higher up above the midline vs. below the midline, but both positions are the same distance from your PAP, the RG remains the same.
There, that's my statement. Now you can debate, argue, call me names or whatever, if you want to. But be careful, you will get slapped around..!!
Sorry for the confusion in my original post. =:^D
Post by: BackToBasics on April 15, 2005, 09:28:23 AM
quote:
What effect does pin to midline distance have on ball reactions when drilling a bowling ball?
So why even mention anything about a ball with no holes....
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Anthony Chapman
Track International Staff
Turbo Grips 2-N-1 Staff
Post by: stanski on April 18, 2005, 12:01:38 AM
quote:
Okay...you were misunderstood...but still wrong either way....
RG is not flare potential, or the stability of the core. It is the radius of gyration....or how center-heavy the ball is. This being said, what difference does pin to PAP distance have on the core? All it does is place the core in a position to rotate.
A ball with an RG of 2.50 is going to have that exact RG whether it's a pin axis drill or a 5 1/2 inch pin......until the holes show up.
Drilling holes in a ball changes it's dynamics.....period
If you put the pin on your midline, you are placing three holes near the top of the core, thus pushing weight towards the center. When you put the pin above the fingers, you're placing three holes in the center of the core, thus pushing the weight towards the outside of it.
This being said the closer to the midline the pin is...the lower the RG of the ball overall. The higher the pin, the higher the RG.
This is the same concept as weight holes, which can be used to shape the core also.
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If you're under 25 and vote republican, you have no heart. If you are over 30 and vote democrat, you have no brain.
This is correct. However, I wonder if T-God can look at this and actually read what you are saying here, without the images of "Lane 1 basher, must no nothing" showing up.
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stanski
Post by: charlest on April 18, 2005, 07:11:33 AM
The question was with regards to moving the pin up and down when DRILLING the ball. This unequivocably necessitates drilled holes. My reply did say that the DRILLED RG was different, higher with the higher pin placement.
At this point in time, I will also add that the higher pin position also results in a quicker transition from skid-to-hook-to-roll, as compared to the lower pin position, and may be a little to a lot more difficult to control.
Post by: T-GOD on April 18, 2005, 03:52:00 PM
Bowling balls have 2 RG's, not 1. They have a max and a min. The max is when the core is standing up and the min is when the core is laying down. One is the X axis and the other is the Y axis.
When the pin is 0 inches from the PAP, the RG is the minimum value.
As you move the pin towards your track the RG increases to the maximum value when it's 6 3/4" from your PAP.
When you lay out a ball, the distance the pin is from your PAP determines what the RG is, based on the balls high and low RG numbers.
So, as you can see, the RG changes due to the layout/pin distance to PAP, irrelevant to drilling of the holes..!!
Jabroni slapped in the face, AGAIN..!! =:^D
For further reference, check out this thread... http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=26983&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5
Post by: njv29 on April 18, 2005, 04:13:35 PM
Next time, try reading the orignal post and thinking about what it is asking making yourself look retarded.
Post by: DP3 on April 18, 2005, 08:11:16 PM
quote:
If you put the pin on your midline, you are placing three holes near the top of the core, thus pushing weight towards the center. When you put the pin above the fingers, you're placing three holes in the center of the core, thus pushing the weight towards the outside of it.
This being said the closer to the midline the pin is...the lower the RG of the ball overall. The higher the pin, the higher the RG.
This pretty much sums it up, although you still have to take the nature of the ball into consideration. Even if you take lets say a Rotogrip Rush which has a very low RG and place the pin over the fingers, you've raised the R.G to it's max but it's still a low RG ball and will act like one. Then if you take on the other side of the spectrum something like a Powergroove and put the pin in the palm, you've lowered the RG to it's max but it's still a High R.G. ball and will still act like one.
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-DP3
...
Post by: T-GOD on April 19, 2005, 11:12:24 AM
quote:Obvioiusly, the rest of you who chimed in about it being a "drilled ball", didn't read this.
Also, you can place the pin, above or below the midline, so as not to hit the core, so we'll leave those comments about hitting the core out of the equation.
Back to the original question, the pin to midline distance is the same as if you have finger or thumb weight in the ball. The higher up the pin, the more length and/or flip. The lower the pin, the earlier and more even the roll. =:^D
Post by: Steven on April 19, 2005, 11:46:06 AM
quote:
The higher up the pin, the more length and/or flip. The lower the pin, the earlier and more even the roll. =:^D
T-GOD: Thanks for cutting through Jabroni's crap and providing a straight answer. Gezzzz....................
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: Ishmael on April 19, 2005, 01:17:59 PM
TGod said
quote:
If the pin is the same distance from the PAP, no matter where it is on the ball, the RG will remain the same.
This is not true. Depending on where the pin is, the gripping holes are removing mass from a different part of the ball and potentially changing the final RG of the ball.
Jabroni said
quote:
This being said, what difference does pin to PAP distance have on the core? All it does is place the core in a position to rotate.
A ball with an RG of 2.50 is going to have that exact RG whether it's a pin axis drill or a 5 1/2 inch pin......until the holes show up.
Yes and no. The RG of the ball is not changing based on the pin position, but the RG of the layout is. If this were correct, a ball drilled with the pin 6 3/4" from the PAP would roll exactly like a ball drilled pin on PAP since both layouts have zero flare. It doesn't because the 6 3/4" layout lopes due to the higher RG while the pin on PAP revs early due to the lower RG.
DP3 said
quote:
Even if you take lets say a Rotogrip Rush which has a very low RG and place the pin over the fingers, you've raised the R.G to it's max but it's still a low RG ball and will act like one. Then if you take on the other side of the spectrum something like a Powergroove and put the pin in the palm, you've lowered the RG to it's max but it's still a High R.G. ball and will still act like one.
While the concept of the ball retaining is natural characteristics is correct, a few things need clearing up. Pin at 6 3/4" from PAP is max RG, not "pin above fingers", which as we know means nothing unless you know the bowlers PAP. Min RG is pin on PAP, not "pin in the palm".
I'm really not sure why this thread is still going since Charlest answered the original question in the first post.
quote:
The higher you move the pin the higher you make the drilled RG of the ball and the longer the ball will go down the lane before it starts to hook. Keep in mind that this added length is ONLY in comparison to the same ball drilled with a lower pin.
Post by: DanH78 on April 19, 2005, 01:20:40 PM
quote:
I'm really not sure why this thread is still going since Charlest answered the original question in the first post.
Cuz it beats working
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The clock on the wall says 3 O'Clock...last call...for Alcohol!
"I love a martini -- but two at the most. Three I’m under the table; Four, I’m under the host." Dorothy Parker
Post by: onlybowling on April 19, 2005, 02:35:02 PM
It seems that several posters are angry with T-God over posts that were written in the past....I don't have enough understanding to choose a side - I don't want to choose a side.
I am reading to learn. I do love this game.
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OnlyBowling