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Author Topic: Symmetrical - Pin length  (Read 6704 times)

lefty50

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Symmetrical - Pin length
« on: May 09, 2022, 08:35:29 AM »
I know these days symmetrical balls are all about pin to pap distance, but I've watched a few videos where Chris Barnes and others will be sure to mention that they are specifically using a longer pin length (5 inches) on a ball that is for example 4 inch pin to pap. I must be hearing that wrong...  Is there really a pin length component that I should be considering these days?
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TWOHAND834

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2022, 08:43:41 AM »
Quote from: lefty50 on May 09, 2022, 08:35:29 AM
I know these days symmetrical balls are all about pin to pap distance, but I've watched a few videos where Chris Barnes and others will be sure to mention that they are specifically using a longer pin length (5 inches) on a ball that is for example 4 inch pin to pap. I must be hearing that wrong...  Is there really a pin length component that I should be considering these days?


No.  He is specifically talking about pin to PAP distance.  I messaged them on one video a few months back and he says he uses longer pin distances because he gets the ball to read the front of the pattern pretty quickly so he needs the extra push.  This is why he rarely uses pin to PAPs shorter than 5 inches.
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Steven Vance
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lefty50

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2022, 10:40:26 AM »
That makes sense. I must have misinterpreted. Thanks Steven.
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dizzyfugu

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2022, 04:25:07 AM »
Maybe not pin to PAP is meant, but rather pin to CG distance? Might be outdated lingo these days, though. "Long pin" typically refers to a bigger distance (3"+), and there are "short pins", too. By chosing a proper pin distance for a ball to drill up you can mildly support the general layout (defined by the pin to PAP placement). Low pin balls tend to have a smoother, earlier reaction, while long pins tend to go longer and have a more pronounced breakpoint. The impact is AFAIK minor, though - but when you have the pkan to set up an early-rolling, smooth ball for long oil, a low pin OOB ball might be a good idea for the "overall setup package".
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TWOHAND834

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2022, 06:43:50 AM »
Quote from: dizzyfugu on May 12, 2022, 04:25:07 AM
Maybe not pin to PAP is meant, but rather pin to CG distance? Might be outdated lingo these days, though. "Long pin" typically refers to a bigger distance (3"+), and there are "short pins", too. By chosing a proper pin distance for a ball to drill up you can mildly support the general layout (defined by the pin to PAP placement). Low pin balls tend to have a smoother, earlier reaction, while long pins tend to go longer and have a more pronounced breakpoint. The impact is AFAIK minor, though - but when you have the pkan to set up an early-rolling, smooth ball for long oil, a low pin OOB ball might be a good idea for the "overall setup package".

Pin to CG doesnt really matter anymore because weight holes are not allowed.  Even when Barnes put the pin below the fingers; he still goes with a 5 inch pin to PAP.  I have always paid attention to layouts when watching telecasts and have always noticed that Barnes likes the pin high above his fingers with the pin either in line with the bridge or over his middle finger which I believe for him is a 5 1/2 pin to PAP but will use one below from time to time.
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Steven Vance
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avabob

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2022, 10:48:13 AM »
Most balls I have purchased over the past few years have been at least 3 inch pin to CG.  With new rules on balance holes and static weights it really doesn't make a lot of difference in layout.  I use to like a 2 by 2 layout with a balance hole on my PAP for some conditions.  It worked better with a shorter pin.  Haven t tried the layout under new rules without the balance hole
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lefty50

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2022, 11:32:42 AM »
Good conversation. When I first heard Chris Barnes' comment, I thought exactly as Dizzy... "it sounds like pin to Cg is being mentioned. I wonder if it has an impact these days..." Steven's comment is spot on, but I do wonder now in retrospect whether there may indeed be a small, even 5%-10% impact. Would be a shame to go with a layout and end up fighting against your own goals due to a lack of knowledge.
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justlane

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2022, 10:16:16 PM »
Pin to PAP distance determines flare. 3 3/8" from PAP should be max flare.  Anything more or less than that reduces flare to some degree. 

Example: Many of us try 2" pin to PAP because it flares earlier, creating control, especially late on the lane.  Going further away and the ball should flare later, creating less stability late.

Caution: Sometimes maxxing out at 3 3/8 can occasionally make the ball "over flare" and hit weaker than it should, depending on the bowler's speed, revs, etc.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 10:20:54 PM by justlane »
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Lane Carter

ignitebowling

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2022, 07:50:00 AM »
Like many things I know many that thought if a ball had a shorter pin to cg it hooked less. So they avoided 0-1" or even 2" pin balls. If you do not understand how something is made or something works then it's easy to fall in that mindset especially when your proshop "professional" is the one saying things like that.

Then Storm/Roto Grip figured out a way to get the consumer to over pay on x-outs by calling them pro cg and pro pin balls because the pros loved them so much for "unique or exotic" layouts. Marketing seems to win out in bowling over logic every time. Then again manufacturers are a huge part of this and sadly USBC isnt much better in helping on the topic. Especially the misinformation they did on weight holes which was used as a means to justify their reason for getting rid of them.
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northface28

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Re: Symmetrical - Pin length
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2022, 06:50:02 PM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on May 13, 2022, 07:50:00 AM
Like many things I know many that thought if a ball had a shorter pin to cg it hooked less. So they avoided 0-1" or even 2" pin balls. If you do not understand how something is made or something works then it's easy to fall in that mindset especially when your proshop "professional" is the one saying things like that.

Then Storm/Roto Grip figured out a way to get the consumer to over pay on x-outs by calling them pro cg and pro pin balls because the pros loved them so much for "unique or exotic" layouts. Marketing seems to win out in bowling over logic every time. Then again manufacturers are a huge part of this and sadly USBC isnt much better in helping on the topic. Especially the misinformation they did on weight holes which was used as a means to justify their reason for getting rid of them.

Well said.
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