BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: militant02 on December 18, 2009, 02:48:57 PM
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i've read that placing a pin above the average bowler's finger gives a ball more length and a stronger move at the breakpoint while placing it below the fingers makes a ball react earlier and smoother. does the pin up ball have a stronger move because it stores more energy? all things being equal, which pin placement would be better for oily lanes for the average bowler (16-17mph, 325rpm, 30* rotation)?
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Yes, generally what you say is correct. A pin up layout will store more energy. For oily lanes it really depends on where the oil is. If the oil is down the lane, and the backends are tight i usually prefer pin up with some surface. If there is a lot of oil but the backends are super clean then I prefer pin down with a little surface.
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Two Hands are better than one!!
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You are correct except for the length part. Pin up or pin down alone does not control length. If cover is the same and pin to pap distance is the same, then the difference between pin up vs pin down is how the ball reads friction.
As far as which one is better for oil, well that depends on what you need the ball to do at the end of the pattern when it see friction.
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"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
http://www.phxbowling.com/acba
http://www.viseinserts.com/
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You are correct except for the length part. Pin up or pin down alone does not control length. If cover is the same and pin to pap distance is the same, then the difference between pin up vs pin down is how the ball reads friction.
As far as which one is better for oil, well that depends on what you need the ball to do at the end of the pattern when it see friction.
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+1 Here
Length can be adjusted with surface prep. How you want the ball to react to (adequate) friction should be your determining factor when deciding pin up or pin down.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
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ok, now i'm ready to give a few more details that might help. i'm kind of familiar with the dual angle method of laying out a ball but some of the techniques seem counterintuitive. i'd about to drill a virtual energy, one pearl and storm fast as my main three balls. i thought that by drilling the VE with the pin down that it would help on heavier patterns but the way that i understand the angle for the vertical axis line affects how quickly a ball revs up and transitions at the breakpoint. it seems as though placing the pin higher in my grip would make a ball react sooner instead of later. i generally bowl in two houses, one wooden with medium oil with blended backends and no carrydown. the second house has synthetic lanes ranges from medium to medium heavy with the same type of backends. i have a one pearl with a 45 x 4 3/4 x 45 but it doesn't react quick enough on the heavier pattern. its not the surface of the because i have a sr300 that flares much less than the pearl one with the same coverstock and almost the same drilling has a much stronger reaction downlane.
how would you lay out a VE, another pearl one and a fast to cover the two houses and overlap as little as possible using the dual angle method. my specs are
pap: 4 3/4 over, 3/4 up, 325 rev rate, 16-17 mph off of my hand
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I have two VE's. One is a 60* 4.5" 25* @ 4000 dull which I like to go to when there is good length on the lanes(my house usually has 44', but not too heavy). This layout allows me to play generally straight(60*), but when it hits the friction it's going to react very quickly to cover the boards needed to make it to the pocket(25*).
The second one is a 50* 4.5 65* at 2000 with polish. If the pattern is shorter or broken down I like to use this one. I'm usually at least 5 boards right of my other VE. However, thanks to the 65* VAL, it will not respond to the dry nearly as fast and makes a nice continuous arc to the pocket.
Hopefully that will at least give you an idea as to what you may want to do with your VE.
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
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x evil, looking at your arsenal i''m guessing that your pap is about five inches over and maybe 1/2 up. it really helped seeing the actual layouts but i have one question, does your virtual energy with the 50*4.5*65 drilling begin to roll earlier than your other virtual energy but doesn''t cover as many boards because it''s smoother at the breakpoint?
Edited on 12/20/2009 11:48 PM
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A larger val angle compared to drill angle will result in slower transition or more of an arc at the break point. A smaller val angle compared to drill angle will have a faster or more angular break point. A 20deg val angle can actually raise your asym. diff. and total Diff. I don't pay attention to pictures of layouts cause everybody's will look different depending on pap for the bowler. A 4" pin to pap for me places the pin above my middle finger, but for some it will be above the ring finger or just right of ring finger. Just my $.02, and I hope this helps!
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"Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will "BOWL TO WIN", KEEP ON "TRACK", HIT LIKE A "HAMMER", AND "BOWL THE WORLD OVER" and not turn from it.
Bruce Campbell
USBC Bronze Certified Coach
IBPSIA Certified Technician
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quote:
x evil, looking at your arsenal i''m guessing that your pap is about five inches over and maybe 1/2 up. it really helped seeing the actual layouts but i have one question, does your virtual energy with the 50*4.5*65 drilling begin to roll earlier than your other virtual energy but doesn''t cover as many boards because it''s smoother at the breakpoint?
Edited on 12/20/2009 11:48 PM
Close. I'm 5 3/4 over, and 3/4 up. and yes, you are correct. Now, that is not to say that the VE you mentioned cannot cover many boards, because it can. Just depends on what conditions I'm on.
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
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militant02...
This will give you a different viewpoint about the Pin up and down.
It should clear up some things for you.
jodyk24
http://www.brunswickinsiders.com/PBA%20Tournaments/07Baltimore/featuredballbaltimore.htm
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Bruce - Your explanation is spot on for the reaction I have experienced with asymmetrical weight blocks. On a long pattern the best drills I have is 45 x 4-1/2 x 40. I have drilled many balls with the pin lower using the old tradional thinking and never got enough reaction off the friction, regardless of surface preparation or weight hole placement. I read a brunswick insider post by Rick Benoit a year ago in which he explained the pin up, lower VAL angle numbers and the strong ball reaction on long oil patterns. The old traditional thinking of pin up for length and pin down for early roll is no longer the case for assymetrical balls in my arsenal.
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this might be slightly off topic but has anyone used certain dual angle layouts that don't seem to fit your game or the type of lane condition that you face most often? what is the smallest angles that you used on a ball and what type of reaction were you looking for versus the largest angles that you used and what type of reaction were you hoping for? i notice that ebonite suggests that 45* angles are for more roll while a 70* angle for a more angular reaction when measuring the first angle. does ebonite's suggestions for the degree of the first angle seem to match up with the dual angle method in your opinion?
also, has anyone used the 70* 2 1/4 * 50 layout that morich suggests for a control layout? did it react as well as you wished it would? just trying to assemble an arsenal and not have too much overlap.
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Pins higher up or smaller angles to the VAL go longer, reacting more quickly to the dry. If the ball doesn't hit dry, it won't transition.
Lower pins or larger angles to the VAL roll earlier on oil, but transition slower to the dry. =:^D
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I have tried zero drilling angles or pin on axis drilling for short patterns. I am a low rev player with 15 mph ball speed on the qubica. I concluded that I prefer urethane over pin on axis type reactive drillings. As far as non traditional drilling patterns which I find useful, I have a 135 drilling angle on a mild coverstock for playing deep on torched lanes. Its better than urethane because I can''t strike from 5th arrow with urethane.
The drilling and VAL angles are very accurate in predicting reaction but as was mentioned you can sum it all up with a statement that "pin up reacts quicker to friction than pin down". 30 degrees is probably as small of a VAL angle is you want to try and anything less than a 25 degree drilling angle is going to be pretty smooth off the spot and have a limited window of effectiveness.
Edited on 12/26/2009 8:42 PM
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in response to tgod''s post, would a pin down/large val angle drilling be more suited to longer oil patterns or tighter backends while generally speaking pin up/ smaller val angle drillings would be more versatile and match up better with the typical house shot? doug, your post is the type of answer that i''m looking for also, examples of drilling angles that aren''t too condition specific so that i can make an educated guess on what minimum and maximum angles to avoid.
Edited on 12/27/2009 8:53 AM
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Have you decided on assymetrical or symmetrical or are you unsure? I am asking because you also have the effect of a weight hole, the VAL placement and pin out distance will effect the type of weight hole you can use or if you can have a weight hole at all. Your going to get more midlane roll with a weight hole. I don''t get enough down lane reaction out of a pin down ball on long oil regardless of surface preparation so pin down is not an option for me. What drillings have been successful in the past for you and what hasn''t?
Edited on 12/27/2009 10:50 AM
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quote:
The drilling and VAL angles are very accurate in predicting reaction but as was mentioned you can sum it all up with a statement that "pin up reacts quicker to friction than pin down". 30 degrees is probably as small of a VAL angle is you want to try and anything less than a 25 degree drilling angle is going to be pretty smooth off the spot and have a limited window of effectiveness. Edited on 12/26/2009 8:42 PM
I agree with the first half of this. I just recently drilled what was to be a test ball only(Track Kinetic Energy) with a 35* 5" 20*(obviously pin up). When the ball hit the dry spot, it was most definitely the proverbial hockey stick backend. With this layout, I most definitely need not only oil length, but oil volume as well.
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
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doug s, i'm getting a virtual energy for medium-heavy, magic action for mediums and a columbia sharp noise for medium-dry. i'm hoping that i can drill them so that their reactions are different enough that i can cover the oil patterns that i see. oh yeah, i plan on using anywhere from 40* to 55* angles for the first angle so the odds are that i'll need a weight hole for the ve and ma. i also use morich weight hole deal to figure out where i'm going to drill one.
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quote:
You are correct except for the length part. Pin up or pin down alone does not control length. If cover is the same and pin to pap distance is the same, then the difference between pin up vs pin down is how the ball reads friction.
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+1 Here
Length can be adjusted with surface prep. How you want the ball to react to (adequate) friction should be your determining factor when deciding pin up or pin down.
Not saying I disagree, but you guys appear to be in the minority on this. The article in the link posted earlier indicates that it's better to control length through other methods. I'm just wondering, would you use MB position or pin position primarily to do this? I know pin distance is more important, but if you expect to see a certain amount of flare and that wouldn't allow the ball to go as long as you'd want, would you use MB position to create more length?
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Justin