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Author Topic: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?  (Read 31140 times)

tgknukem

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Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« on: February 20, 2014, 04:15:26 AM »
In the 'Basic Top Weight Question' thread, it appears it was generally agreed upon that static weights have minimal to no effect on ball performance.  If this is the case then how does drilling a ball 'pin up' vs. 'pin down' affect ball motion?  Having the pin above the fingers or below does not affect radius of gyration, the only affects would be on the location of the bowties and static weights(i.e. finger or thumb weight).  The ending static weights would also be dependent upon pin to CG distance and weight removal during drilling.  I'm not aware of any way that drilling a ball 'pin down' can make it 'early revving' unless the final statics are  thumbweighted, or if the pin is less than 3 3/8 inches from the PAP and 'pin down'.

 

tgknukem

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 02:08:32 AM »
I'm not a balldriller, so I'll assume that some if not all of these explanations are correct.  It' seems counterintuitive though to place a pin 5 inches from the PAP to decrease rev rate for control and then try to dig a bit of core out of the ball to increase rev rate, when one could buy a ball with a 5" pin and place the pin 1.75 inches from the PAP giving the same amount of axis migration and also giving a very noticable increase in rev rate.

JustRico

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2014, 07:32:08 AM »
Rev rate is predicated by the bowlers attributes...not the bowling ball

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say
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Jesse James

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2014, 02:12:00 PM »
There are certain beliefs in ball motion that could easily fall into the irrelevant relevant category....static weights, pin up vs pin down, pearl vs solid...

Static weights is obviously a horse that has been beaten to glue...

Pin up vs pin down should be also looked at in a simplistic manner - if you place a pin directly below or just above the gripping holes is there a true difference? NO - if you place a pin 1" below or 1" above the gripping holes is there a difference...???



I have to disagree with your assessment here. The majority of my equipment has always been drilled pin-up. A lot of my balls with the pin right over the middle finger. Here lately, I've been experimenting with pin-down layouts extensively, and for me, the pin-down layout is much more versatile, and useable on a variety of conditions.

I throw from 13.5- 15.5mph when bowling in most of my leagues. I have about a 350 rev rate, and am told that I have a lot of hand.

For me the pin-down drillings allow me to "hit it" or back-off as the condition  requires, and I find that I throw a lot fewer splits now than ever before. Now mind you, the heaviest condition I throw on in any of the 4 leagues that I bowl, is a medium condition.

So to say that the change from pin-up to pin-down is imperceptible is not true to me. But, as in all things bowling, it depends primarily on the operator and the conditions he/she plays on. If I were playing on a heavy oil condition, I am pretty sure it would be much harder to read whether there was any change whatsoever.
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JustRico

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 02:18:27 PM »
Did you replace the exact same balls that were pin up with pin downs? If you didn't you can't truly justify that statement
Trust me there is a lot to be said to what one thinks they see which if proper or correct to the eye increases one's ability to relax and perform...
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Jesse James

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 02:28:09 PM »
Did you replace the exact same balls that were pin up with pin downs? If you didn't you can't truly justify that statement
Trust me there is a lot to be said to what one thinks they see which if proper or correct to the eye increases one's ability to relax and perform...

Yes, I did. I previously had a pin-up Outlaw which I re-drilled to pin-down, and a pin-up Infinite Theory, re-drilled to pin-down. The Infinite is asymmetric and the Outlaw symmetric, I believe. Both of my new reactions are miles away from the original reactions I got from these balls. Both balls are much smoother, and break later. For me they are much more controllable.
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vkowalski1970

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2014, 02:29:37 PM »
I tend to agree with Jesse James....I have two Nomads, both drilled with 5 inch pin to pap distances, one with a 40 val angle, one with a 70 val angle...same surface. I did this about a year ago when i was struggling. I had people tell me that because of my tilt, I would see a difference. I wanted to see for myself and also felt that in order to know I had to match two balls....so i did it....I do see a difference for me...and it is noticeable. Not that its night and day, but I do seem to find the pin down(70val) to be much more controlled and for me useable for longer periods of time. I even plugged my Pin up nomad to save for another day now.
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Jesse James

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2014, 02:42:05 PM »
My Outlaw is 30x 5 x 70.

My Infinite is 20x 4.5 x 70.

Previously I could not use my Infinite in any of the houses I currently bowl in. It would read the mids strongly and make a huge move off the spot! This has now changed. I can now use it in all my houses, and just align my feet, while changing releases for desired amount of hitting power.
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tgknukem

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2014, 03:26:56 AM »
Bowlers' attributes are not the only thing that determines rev rate.  Rev rate of a spinning object is determined by rotational force(torque) applied,  time amount torque is applied, and it's moment of inertia(expressed as units by radius of gyration for bowling balls-RG).  Torque and time are bowlers attributes, Rg is a function of core design.  The lower the RG measurement of a bowling ball-the more it's mass is located toward the axis, and consequently the easier it is for ones hand to spin it(apply angular momentum).  A bowling ball is least difficult to spin with the core parallel to the axis-pin on the PAP, RG the lowest.  A ball is most difficult to spin with the core perpendicular to the axis-pin 6.75 inches from the PAP, RG the highest. When 'hook' is solely a function of RG, then a ball with a pin 5" from the PAP will hook less then a ball with a pin 1.75' from the PAP because the rev rate is lower, it was more difficult to spin due to the RG being higher.

JustRico

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2014, 08:10:27 AM »
Rev rate is solely and purely based upon the bowler and nothing else. You are referencing differing variables...RG is similar to an ice skater, if the ice skater's arm are closer to their body, they spin faster (low RG)...in the same sense, if the skater extends their arms, they slow their spin (high RG)...but the spin rate is still dependent on the ice skater's ability
Hook is any deviation from a straight line and predicated on more than merely the core dynamics and/or core numbers...for the core to have any effect on the reaction, the bowling ball has to slow down...this is (minus bowlers attributes) predicated by surface. If the bowlers ball speed is slower, the ball will tend to slow earlier and/or easier. If their ball speed is higher, the bowling ball, without proper amt of surface, will labor to slow down and struggle to change direction.
A bowler's ball speed dictates how the bowling ball will slow down...after that the rev rate, tilt & rotation dictate what the bowling ball will do at that point.
Bowling balls are merely tools of the bowler and should be used to compensate for what the bowlers lack and/or need in regards to reaction.
An object at rest remains at rest...no matter the RG or the diff until proper forces are applied plain & simple.
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tgknukem

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2014, 08:31:32 AM »
I apologize for not being able to explain rotational mechanics in a way that you can understand.  In the case of a skater you are referencing an object in which angular momentum has already been applied by her approach into the spin.  Tucking her arms or extending change moment of inertia(RG), but do not decrease or increase initial force applied.  Objects of the same mass but differing moments of inertia will spin at different rates if the same initial force is applied to them for the same unit of time, solely because of the differing radius of gyration.

JustRico

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2014, 08:42:35 AM »
If you are under the assumption I am unaware of ball motion, ball reaction and/or what creates it...in abt 6 months (give or take) you can pick our next book in regards to this...thank you for thinking you are explaining, well not sure what you're trying to explain but you're off base in your assumptions...I am good in the world of physics and what is attributed to actually creating ball reaction.

One last thing, again rev rate is not predicated on a bowling ball or it's inherent core dynamics...it is solely based upon the bowler and their applied forces...bowling balls are tools or extensions of the bowler
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2014, 09:03:08 AM »
One guy is debating physics and the other practical application. 

Here we go!

tgknukem

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2014, 09:15:37 AM »
which ball could you propel with a higher rev rate, a 10lb ball or a 16 lb ball, and why?

JustRico

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2014, 09:16:50 AM »
I'm not debating physics...I'm stating the rev rate is solely predicated by a Bowler's attributes...the bowling ball & it's dynamics only enhance those attributes

He is stating physics in regards to the dynamics of the bowling ball
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Impending Doom

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Re: Pin up vs. pin down, misinformation?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2014, 09:29:40 AM »
Wait, you mean I can't get a bowling ball that will make me Jason Belmonte?