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Author Topic: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts  (Read 3276 times)

kmanestor22

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Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« on: April 26, 2007, 04:48:20 PM »
I was discussing asymmetrical drilling with a customer today.  He brought in a Shift, drilled elsewhere that wasn't moving.  The mass bias was placed in the "strong" position.  Now drilling instructions suggest pin placements by distance from PAP not just pin under ring, pin over bridge, etc.  Why do they make mass bias suggestions with vague strong position, arc position, roll position?  Mass bias placement depends on PAP just like the pin.  It also depends on rev rate and how much the ball flares.  Draw a line from pin to mass bias.  The PAP has to migrate past that line before the core enhances motion.  In this case the ball was drilled low flare and the customers PAP was 5-5/8" over.  His PAP never made it to "the line of most resistance," therefore, the core never took affect.  I won't blame the driller.  He just did what the customer asked for.  Actually this is an effective drilling if you intend to take the asymmetry out of the picture.  The fact of the matter is that the drilling instruction said that this is the position for a strong reaction, which is misleading.  I know MoRich gives mass bias suggestion as distances from PAP.  Why aren't other companies following suit?
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DP3

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Re: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2007, 11:18:29 AM »
I'm finding in most strong Assymetricals we are seeing the "strong" position of the MB in the 5" to PAP range and about 3-3 1/2" from the VAL which puts it closer to the thumb or almost on it for players with axis coordinates in the 4 3/4" - 5 1/2" range.  

These new assymetricals are so strong and spin up so quick, a strong MB placement will negate any type of length you're trying to achieve with the pin placement(if you go high above the fingers or at 5+ inches from the PAP).  

I've drilled two Epic Saga's which both spin up in the 5-5.2 second range.  One has the "Trick Layout" in it.  The pin at 4 1/2" to my PAP and 1 1/2" pin buffer distance and the MB 5 1/2 from my PAP which lands on top and a little left of the thumb.  Then I have one drilled pin 4 1/2 from my axis under the bridge and the MB at 60 degrees("strong" position) which lands about 2" from the VAL.  

Guess what....Ball #2 wants to spin up quick and lay off in the backend, ball #1 goes about 6 feet longer and makes a dead left move out of the friction.  Yet in a weaker assymetrical ball(ex. TPC Warrior), the same drilling #2 yeilds a sharp change of direction and drilling #1 made the ball skid through the back curtain.  

Use your best judgement.  Strong assymetrical cores require a bit of thinking and tweaking before you can just put a generic assymetrical layout that the sheet provides.  Typically in stronger assymetricals(mb strengths above .018) I'd go with no stronger than a 5" MB to PAP if you want to promote a sharper change of direction.  Anything stronger will spin up way too quick in the midlane and do nothing down the lane, especially for the high rev players.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop

kmanestor22

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Re: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2007, 03:24:24 PM »
Actually I have found the strong position on the Saga-Odyssey core to be weak.  I threw a Saga with the mb on my VAL and one with it in the strong position.  The one with the mass bias further out had a ton more backend the the strong position.  I also drilled my Odyssey with the mb on my VAL.  For a dull ball, it gets down the lane and booms on the backend.  This goes against the general concept of mass bias placement, but I think it is covered in my previous post.  As for your Saga, I think the pin buffer difference makes more of a difference than your mass bias position.  Most will agree.
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Where is the bait?  I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

DP3

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Re: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2007, 07:52:01 PM »
You said the strong position appears "weak", well I'd say it's just an optical illusion.  That "strong" position is going to be the position of the MB where the core will spin up to reach it's PSA the fastest.  In this type of core it'll spin up in the strong position to it's PSA anywhere from 5-20 feet out on the lane.  This is in the heads where the ball is going so fast that the user cannot recognize what is happening because we as bowlers are trained to see "hook" down the lane and not early motion in the heads.  You MB on the VAL placement booms on the backend because it starts a stable roll in the heads but spins up later.  So if there's any friction down the lane and no early friction you will see the ball check up quicker in response to friction.

Now your argument about pin buffer distance may hold true with the Saga, but why not with the weaker assymetrical TPC Warrior?  That ball with the same assymetrical layout #1 flared very late and never stabilized a strong enough roll except for instances of extreme friction.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop

themagician

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Re: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2007, 09:05:32 PM »
Well as of late all of the Mass Bias equipment from Storm comes with a pretty nice layout booklet and drill sheet with Mass Bias and Pin to pap distances being used and also mentionings of Pin up and down to change reaction style. It seemed to me Morich was just a little ahead of the other companies, though now it is changing.
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kmanestor22

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Re: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 01:59:29 AM »
quote:
Well as of late all of the Mass Bias equipment from Storm comes with a pretty nice layout booklet and drill sheet with Mass Bias and Pin to pap distances being used and also mentionings of Pin up and down to change reaction style. It seemed to me Morich was just a little ahead of the other companies, though now it is changing.
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Just another aspiring junior bowler who is just starting to get there.




I may be mistaken, but I think it was the Shift drilling chart I looked up and found they still didn't do PAP to mass bias suggestions.
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Where is the bait?  I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

duvallite

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Re: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 07:13:16 PM »
What is the "pin buffer difference", and how does it affect reaction?

themagician

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Re: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 07:38:42 PM »
quote:
quote:
Well as of late all of the Mass Bias equipment from Storm comes with a pretty nice layout booklet and drill sheet with Mass Bias and Pin to pap distances being used and also mentionings of Pin up and down to change reaction style. It seemed to me Morich was just a little ahead of the other companies, though now it is changing.
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Just another aspiring junior bowler who is just starting to get there.




I may be mistaken, but I think it was the Shift drilling chart I looked up and found they still didn't do PAP to mass bias suggestions.
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Where is the bait?  I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer


Hmm, the one that was in the box was a gold colored plasticy like paper booklet. It include information on Pin Buffer, Pin to PAP, Pin height, and also MB to PAP effects on reaction, and then there was another booklet on drillings more geared for different patterns.
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Just another aspiring junior bowler who is just starting to get there.

-Mike
-MOTIV Staff

kmanestor22

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Re: Ball companies re-write your asymm charts
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 08:34:42 PM »
My mistake.  The ball the customer brought in the didn't move much was a Shift.  I think the chart may have been Roto-Grip's.
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Where is the bait?  I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Edited on 5/3/2007 8:33 PM