Author Topic: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball (Read 6022 times)

pjr300 · « **on:** September 14, 2007, 10:34:59 AM »

I have a question about using a Label Leverage layout. I use this layout (pin right and slightly above ring, CG in center of palm) to provide more length than my standard layout (4x4 stacked).

My question: what sort of reaction should I expect from this layout on an asymetric ball? This would place the MB to the left of the thumb. Will the ball work or will it just suck? Should I just stick with a symetric ball?
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

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Juggernaut · « **Reply #1 on:** September 14, 2007, 06:53:15 PM »

You have to watch out when drilling an assymmetric ball with the MB on the track side of the thumbhole.

Some of the manufacturers even reccommend against it, saying that it can cause the ball to roll over the holes, or, even make it have a reverse flare pattern.

I did it with a blue/green centaur, but that balls differential and mb numbers are low and there was little danger of it hitting the holes.
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Russell · « **Reply #2 on:** September 14, 2007, 07:06:05 PM »

Drillings are not measured in relation to the grip...but the PAP.
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pjr300 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 14, 2007, 07:17:50 PM »

quote:
Drillings are not measured in relation to the grip...but the PAP.

Right... think of it as a 3 3/8" x 5" layout.

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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

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charlest · « **Reply #4 on:** September 14, 2007, 07:38:42 PM »

quote:
quote:
Drillings are not measured in relation to the grip...but the PAP.

Right... think of it as a 3 3/8" x 5" layout.

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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

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But then the "5 inch" CG position can have the MB in the track or on the right side (the strong side of the thumb). So my feeling is that it's just wrong to think of a label drilling for a strong MASS BIAS, asymmetric cored ball.

The stronger the Mass Bias, the weaker the ball (backend and break point, mostly) IF the MB is placed in or near the track. So, a Kinteic, with an MB of .006, may make little difference if the MB is placed in the track, whereas you'll probably kill the ball entirely if you placed the MB in the track of an Awesome Finish, whose MB is .033".
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

novawagonmaster · « **Reply #5 on:** September 14, 2007, 08:04:14 PM »

The ball should get decent length and react with a smooth arc. I've drilled a few balls this way, and it seems to work well on a fresh shot when you can play the track area. Try to get (deeper) inside, and the ball will have a tendency to not finish.
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pjr300 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2007, 08:30:26 PM »

quote:
But then the "5 inch" CG position can have the MB in the track or on the right side (the strong side of the thumb). So my feeling is that it's just wrong to think of a label drilling for a strong MASS BIAS, asymmetric cored ball.

The stronger the Mass Bias, the weaker the ball (backend and break point, mostly) IF the MB is placed in or near the track. So, a Kinteic, with an MB of .006, may make little difference if the MB is placed in the track, whereas you'll probably kill the ball entirely if you placed the MB in the track of an Awesome Finish, whose MB is .033".

Thx for the responses. My PAP is 5" over and 1/4" up, so the MB in a 3 3/8 x 5" would put the MB left of the thumb....

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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile

charlest · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2007, 08:46:31 PM »

quote:
quote:
But then the "5 inch" CG position can have the MB in the track or on the right side (the strong side of the thumb). So my feeling is that it's just wrong to think of a label drilling for a strong MASS BIAS, asymmetric cored ball.

The stronger the Mass Bias, the weaker the ball (backend and break point, mostly) IF the MB is placed in or near the track. So, a Kinteic, with an MB of .006, may make little difference if the MB is placed in the track, whereas you'll probably kill the ball entirely if you placed the MB in the track of an Awesome Finish, whose MB is .033".

Thx for the responses. My PAP is 5" over and 1/4" up, so the MB in a 3 3/8 x 5" would put the MB left of the thumb....

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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile

Not to be nasty or anything like that, BUT that is ONLY when the pin/CG/MB are all in a straight line. You cannot count on that with Mass Bias balls. You just can't. Plus with MB balls, you must talk about the pin and the MB with respect to the bowler's PAP. If you don't, you'll leave yourself wide open to misinterpretations and lots of potential for major errors.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Russell · « **Reply #8 on:** September 14, 2007, 09:46:26 PM »

quote:
quote:
But then the "5 inch" CG position can have the MB in the track or on the right side (the strong side of the thumb). So my feeling is that it's just wrong to think of a label drilling for a strong MASS BIAS, asymmetric cored ball.

The stronger the Mass Bias, the weaker the ball (backend and break point, mostly) IF the MB is placed in or near the track. So, a Kinteic, with an MB of .006, may make little difference if the MB is placed in the track, whereas you'll probably kill the ball entirely if you placed the MB in the track of an Awesome Finish, whose MB is .033".

Thx for the responses. My PAP is 5" over and 1/4" up, so the MB in a 3 3/8 x 5" would put the MB left of the thumb....

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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile

I also would like to point out that the math does not allow the mass bias to be left of your thumb. Your grip centerline is 5" over.....how can it be 5" away and past that line?
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http://www.myspace.com/rlrussell

The artist formerly known as "jabroni"

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #9 on:** September 15, 2007, 12:57:08 PM »

Charlest I believe nailed it.

It is only the strongest mass bias balls. Those over .018 differential where ones start to see the warning about not putting the mass bias negative.

Balls like the Newer assymetric Zones have this warning. Balls at storm starting with the XXX factor people were warned not to put the mass bias left of the thumb or in the track.

However lower intermediate differential balls like the X factor, Columbia Drive, Morich Ravage and that whole series of cores allow it, the Ebonite TPCs.

All these balls allow mb in track and its a good drilling when conditions are right.

Even a post today a guy talks about putting a supersymmetrical drilling on a LevRG and having it work fine(super strong mass bias .033 and the mb under thumb...not in track).

All of these drillings with negative mb placement have the effect of taking out midlane and then the ball just moving at the back based on the pin position.

Very appropriate in my home center which has very little midlane oil after 15 feet and a sloppy backend after the dry midlanes. The drilling you referenced put on an X factor or Columbia Drive, or on a Morich Sahara has impressed sometimes in this center in how it waits(when stacked drillings (or should I say strong mass bias drillings really want to grab early and force one too deep for carry) and then makes a strong move on the back.

Check the mass bias rating, analyze how dry your midlanes are and if everything matches up....drill away!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

pjr300 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 15, 2007, 03:24:52 PM »

quote:
Charlest I believe nailed it.

It is only the strongest mass bias balls. Those over .018 differential where ones start to see the warning about not putting the mass bias negative.....

Very appropriate in my home center which has very little midlane oil after 15 feet and a sloppy backend after the dry midlanes. The drilling you referenced put on an X factor or Columbia Drive, or on a Morich Sahara has impressed sometimes in this center in how it waits(when stacked drillings (or should I say strong mass bias drillings really want to grab early and force one too deep for carry) and then makes a strong move on the back....

Luckylefty, thanks! So I'd bet a Black widow wouldn't be good with this layout? Too high of a mass bias?

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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile

charlest · « **Reply #11 on:** September 15, 2007, 05:38:58 PM »

quote:
quote:
Charlest I believe nailed it.

It is only the strongest mass bias balls. Those over .018 differential where ones start to see the warning about not putting the mass bias negative.....

Very appropriate in my home center which has very little midlane oil after 15 feet and a sloppy backend after the dry midlanes. The drilling you referenced put on an X factor or Columbia Drive, or on a Morich Sahara has impressed sometimes in this center in how it waits(when stacked drillings (or should I say strong mass bias drillings really want to grab early and force one too deep for carry) and then makes a strong move on the back....

Luckylefty, thanks! So I'd bet a Black widow wouldn't be good with this layout? Too high of a mass bias?

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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile

not unless you have one heck of a lot of revs or a whole lot of axis tilt.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #12 on:** September 16, 2007, 07:37:15 AM »

I just went to Hammer's site.

And even though they call the black widow a strong mass bias ball...they illustrate a label leverage drill(MB in track).

In general I've found the company drill sheets to be the guide that tells one whether to put a mass bias negative. Note...I've seen guys do it anyway on balls not recommended like the Vertigo from Storm or the One from Ebonite and have good results(sometimes). I've seen some do it(say with a MoRich WMB (drill sheet says no)and have abysmal results and have to redrill).

BUT the hammer Black Widow and Black Widow pearl say go ahead!

Of course I have noted the ball has a tendancy to go long anyway even with stronger mass bias drillings.

There may be better balls for that drilling unless one has a ton of friction most of the way down the lane.

REgards,

Luckylefty

Hammer
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

Russell · « **Reply #13 on:** September 16, 2007, 08:31:53 AM »

I want to point out again that based on his PAP the mass has to be at least 6" from the PAP to be in the track. He stated that a 5" MB would be in the track....this is not possible.

You're getting very close to that magical number where the ball flares backwards and rolls like turd.
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http://www.myspace.com/rlrussell

The artist formerly known as "jabroni"

qstick777 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 16, 2007, 09:26:29 PM »

quote:
I want to point out again that based on his PAP the mass has to be at least 6" from the PAP to be in the track. He stated that a 5" MB would be in the track....this is not possible.

You're getting very close to that magical number where the ball flares backwards and rolls like turd.
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http://www.myspace.com/rlrussell

The artist formerly known as "jabroni"

Sounds like so confusion. Sounds like pjr300 is referring to 3 3/8 x 5 and referencing the pin and CG. The 5" would put the CG in the grip center. Assuming the pin, CG, and MB are all in alignment, that would put the MB in the track area.

I've always thought that if a ball had a marked MB, the second number in the drilling (ie: 4 x 5) would reference the distance of the MB from PAP.

I don't think everybody is speaking the same language.
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Author Topic: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball (Read 6022 times)

pjr300

Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

Juggernaut

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

Russell

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

pjr300

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

charlest

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

novawagonmaster

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

pjr300

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

charlest

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

Russell

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

LuckyLefty

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

pjr300

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

charlest

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

LuckyLefty

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

Russell

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball

qstick777

Re: Question about using Label Leverage layout on an asymetric ball