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Author Topic: Reference line  (Read 6318 times)

spinner031

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Reference line
« on: July 20, 2007, 09:39:40 AM »
I don't drill balls, but I'm curious to know how once I have found my PAP location (using a pin to PAP, MB to PAP system) on an undrilled ball, how do I know which direction on the ball to move to find my grip center.  How do I know, out of the infinite options on the sphere, which direction is north, east, south, and west, if you catch my drift.

 

300_behind_bars

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2007, 05:51:04 AM »
The distance of the pin to PAP will affect the amount of hook potential (moving pin right to left), up and down will affect the distance the ball will travel before the core tries to turn the ball.  A pin at the PAP will roll early and straight, as will a pin 6.75 inches from your PAP.

spinner031

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2007, 08:47:40 AM »
Oh, okay.  Now  I understand.  But even after I have selected my pin - PAP and MB distances, and then I decide to put the pin 3" above my midline, the ball will still carry out the characteristics of the layout I chose, right?  It will still do what 4 1/2" x 4MB will do, but will also react in a way that putting the pin 3" above my midline will grant as well.  What I mean is, the ball, because it is now drilled 4 1/2 x 4MB, pin 3" above midline, it will react accordingly not only to the pin-PAP and MB distances but the "above midline" distances also.

spinner031

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2007, 08:54:57 AM »
But regardless of the pin above midline distance, I can't change how far the pin is left/right of the fingers, is that right?

strikealot

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2007, 09:48:04 AM »
correct..it has to be 3,4,5 inches or whatever distance you want the pin to pap to be
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charlest

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2007, 09:52:04 AM »
quote:
But regardless of the pin above midline distance, I can't change how far the pin is left/right of the fingers, is that right?


No, not with a fixed pin-PAP distance.
With a fixed pin-PAP distance, the higher you place the pin, in relation to the midline, the closer the pin will have to be moved towards the VAL, in order to meet those specifications.

You'd be better off having a drilled ball in front of you with the PAP marked and a transparent template (tracing paper?) with the pin and CG (of a fixed distance, like a ball would have) marked in it. Move the pin and CG around, using a compass or flexible ruler to see where the pin/CG would be as you change the height above the midline.

This will help you visualize what is being discussed.
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spinner031

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2007, 10:54:59 AM »
If my span is 4", what formula is there that will show me what type of reaction I might get out of a ball based on how far above the midline I have the pin?

JohnP

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2007, 10:55:09 AM »
For this discussion, most folks are using a PAP location that is straight across from the gc.  While this makes it easier to visualize, most bowlers have a positive or negative vertical component to their PAP.  So let's use PAP components of 5" horizontal and 1" positive vertical.  First locate the PAP using whatever system you choose (the 4 1/2 x 4 you mentioned earlier works fine).  Now draw a 1" circle around the PAP, representing the vertical component.  ANY line that is tangent to that circle could be your midline.  (Most of them don't make any sense, but they still COULD be.)  Since the PAP vertical component is positive, you adjust the ball position so the tangent line you choose is BELOW the PAP (if the PAP had a negative vertical component, the tangent line would be above the PAP).  That's where another dimension is required.  If it's distance above the midline, choose your tangent line so the pin ends up there.  Hope this helps.  --  JohnP

spinner031

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2007, 12:09:27 PM »
As well as a "pin above GC" distance, may I also specify a "pin left/right of GC distance?

My goal now is to have a ball drilled 4 1/2 x 4MB with the pin 3 above and 1 1/4 right of GC. My PAP is 5 3/8 x 1 5/8 and my span is 4".

jgreenwd

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2007, 12:34:56 PM »
As far as your example, all you'd have to tell the driller is that you want it drilled 4.5" x 4MB and 2.875" above midline. Make sure you've got an accurate PAP measurement, otherwise it's all for naught.

You COULD specify a left-to-right measurement from grip center, but it's being redundant. A right triangle is formed by 3 coordinates in the measurement: Pin, PAP, and the intersect of those 2 referenced to midline. The coordinates you're giving your driller are the distances measured between those points: Pin to PAP, Pin to midline (which the grip center is placed on in my example), and PAP to grip center (this one is the only one that's fixed). If there is a vertical component to the PAP measurement, then the bottom line is parallel to the midline (this only works on paper; on the ball it will appear bulged in the middle and thin on ends, because of the ball's spherical surface).

That left-to-right measurement is simply a function of the other measurements lining up. If you have the other coordinates, then you can calculate the pin's distance from grip center. Thusly, you don't really care about knowing that measurement, since it's actually determined by manipulating the others. Imagine a horizontal line with a dot floating over it. The dot has a line pointed down from it which is vertical and perpendicular to the flat line (that's your distance above midline) and a diagonal line to one end of our flat line (that's your P2P measurement). Keep your horizontal line still. Slide the dot along that diagonal line and you're altering the P2P distance (and consequently altering the distance from grip center). Slide the dot up or down the vertical line and you're altering the distance above midline (and because the ball is spherical, somewhat altering the distance from grip center).

As a side note, many drillers don't think about the distance above midline too much. They only reference the pin placement to the fingers, ie. above, below, or even with the fingers. This handicaps them in a way, by limiting their options for manipulating the ball's RG. However, it does make the layout process simpler.

Edited on 7/21/2007 12:35 PM

Edited on 7/21/2007 12:36 PM

spinner031

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2007, 01:39:49 PM »
I've attempted to lay this out on a piece of paper.

My PAP coordinates are 5 3/8 x 1 5/8.  My span is 4", cut-to-cut.

The layout is 4 1/2 x 4MB (MB at 52 degrees).  I put the pin 3 1/8" above the midline, and it ended up about 1/4 inch from the top of my ring finger.  The MB ended up at 3 o' clock from my thumb.

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jgreenwd

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2007, 02:07:45 PM »
That looks about right. Your driller will probably want to raise the pin to about 4" above midline, to get it an inch away from the finger holes. This is to keep from drilling into the bottom of the pin, which helps keep it from cracking.

Re-Evolution

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2007, 03:04:44 PM »
quote:
As well as a "pin above GC" distance, may I also specify a "pin left/right of GC distance?

My goal now is to have a ball drilled 4 1/2 x 4MB with the pin 3 above and 1 1/4 right of GC. My PAP is 5 3/8 x 1 5/8 and my span is 4".


You can only specify either above or left/right of GC if you use both you change the Pin to PAP distance. Here is a pic showing approximately what different 4.5 x 4 layouts would look like based on your span and PAP. There may be a small difference in the way it looks due to the fact that the pic is laid out in a linear environment which distorts the perspective some. I am not going to go through the calculations to convert the measurements from linear to spherical cause to be quite frank it is a pain to do.
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spinner031

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2007, 03:40:43 PM »
And you don't have to.  That's what I pay the proshop for.

Jgreenwd, I understand your comment about the pin cracking.  I have a ball drilled now with the pin cut into, but it hasn't really cracked.  Is it worth the risk?  Pushing it up to 4" will lengthen the breakpoint.

jgreenwd

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2007, 06:40:28 PM »
We're looking at a difference of 7/8" from your other pin placement. By my math, it produces a difference of 0.0067 in the manipulated RG of the Machine. I doubt that'd be enough to see a difference on the lanes. Especially, with the large vertical component to your PAP measurement, it really shouldn't be too much of a problem. Now, if you didn't have that, or if your span was significantly larger, I would be a little more concerned.

Is it a new ball? If it's used, then you won't have a manufacturer's warranty to worry about. If it's new, it would really suck to have that pin crack out.

spinner031

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Re: Reference line
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2007, 06:43:12 PM »
It's NIB.

My span is 4" from the bottom edge of the grips and the top edge of the thumb slug.