Post by: getuaload on February 26, 2008, 04:31:53 AM
http://www.brunsnick.com/rico_ball_layout.html
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Post by: getuaload on February 26, 2008, 03:38:11 PM
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Visionary Test staff 07/08
Post by: BrunsNick on February 26, 2008, 04:11:08 PM
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
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Post by: Verbs on February 26, 2008, 07:59:04 PM
Verbs
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Larry Verble
Post by: BrunsNick on February 27, 2008, 01:16:23 AM
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
http://www.BrunsNick.com
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Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: Mike Austin on February 27, 2008, 01:30:51 AM
Ahhhhaaaahhhhhhh!!! Run Away, run away!!!
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Post by: Greg T on February 27, 2008, 07:05:00 AM
Why would anyone choose to call this a RICO layout? I can go to nearly any center in the U.S. that is 40 to 50 years old and pick about 30 old Brunswick balls off the rack with this layout. Does no one realize that this, at one time, was a standard layout for all balls? There are a crap load of them at our center, Black Beauties, the old black Ebonites, and all the other rubber stuff that was out back then have this standard layout. I don't know what any of you have in your neck of the woods but I can probably pick up at least 30 of them at any given moment. This is not a new layout by any stretch of the imagination.
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Post by: pop_1 on February 27, 2008, 07:14:20 AM
I don't care what its called. It works for me. But, I know that Ric has been using a lot and that is why the name kinda stuck.
Edited on 2/27/2008 8:14 AM
Post by: Juggernaut on February 27, 2008, 07:15:35 AM
quote:
Why would anyone choose to call this a RICO layout? I can go to nearly any center in the U.S. that is 40 to 50 years old and pick about 30 old Brunswick balls off the rack with this layout. Does no one realize that this, at one time, was a standard layout for all balls? There are a crap load of them at our center, Black Beauties, the old black Ebonites, and all the other rubber stuff that was out back then have this standard layout. I don't know what any of you have in your neck of the woods but I can probably pick up at least 30 of them at any given moment. This is not a new layout by any stretch of the imagination.
GregT,
Yes, back in the day, most balls were drilled with some variation of an " over the label/pin" drilling. Thing is, back then, nearly ALL balls were constructed in a three piece pancake weight system. There was little, if any, dynamics of flare built into the balls. Basically, they were just round projectiles with nothing dynamic about them, period.
With the advent of modern era bowling, things changed rapidly. It quickly became the norm for driller and bowlers to "max out" the performance potential of every ball out there. Exploring the realms of hook and power as never before. The old days were left far behind in a cloud of dust.
The "RICO" drilling isn't QUITE as simple as those old balls drillings, but it does use the laws of physics to help build a more stable ball reaction, much as was in those older balls. A few specifics had to be found ( whether by trial and error or some other technique) such as x-hole placement and pin-to-pap for most effect.
As for why they call it "RICO" in the first place? Not sure, unless it is a play on the name of the guy who said it would work and did it to show people, maybe Ric Hamlin figured this out?
Or, maybe, it is from Rico Suave because he is so smooooooooth, lol
--------------------
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Post by: Dan Belcher on February 27, 2008, 07:17:27 AM
quote:(Haven't I explained this exact thing to you several times now? It seems like I have...) Just putting the pin in grip center does not make it a "Rico" layout. Rico is very specifically pin in grip center, CG swung 45 degrees, x-hole 6 3/4" down in line with the pin and CG. (Without the x-hole, it ain't Rico!) Since Ric Hamlin has been one of the biggest fans of this layout for years and has promoted it with his bowlers, it just got the nickname. And "Rico" is a hell of a lot easier to say than that entire sentence describing the layout above.
Why would anyone choose to call this a RICO layout? I can go to nearly any center in the U.S. that is 40 to 50 years old and pick about 30 old Brunswick balls off the rack with this layout. Does no one realize that this, at one time, was a standard layout for all balls? There are a crap load of them at our center, Black Beauties, the old black Ebonites, and all the other rubber stuff that was out back then have this standard layout. I don't know what any of you have in your neck of the woods but I can probably pick up at least 30 of them at any given moment. This is not a new layout by any stretch of the imagination.
Post by: Greg T on February 27, 2008, 10:49:34 AM
quote:
SO Greg you are telling me that 40 to 50 years ago drillers were using weight holes? As well as PLACING pins in the middle of the palms? REALLY? I call BULLS**T.
Now, granted I have said numerous times, it is merely a tag for a popular layout and I did not invent it, as I am given credit for, but to make a blatantly ignorant statement as this, well is just that, IGNORANT.
Seeing that I have been around for a few years and am somewhat of a historian, as well as DRILLED a few bowling balls in my time, I know that weight holes WERE NOT previlent until the mid to late 70's and if I remember CORRECTLY, PINS were not present until, oh EARLY 80's in Hammers or Angles?
So how could you use a 'layout', that utilizes a PIN (which is a 2-piece core), CG and a WEIGHT HOLE at 6 3/4" 40 to 50 years AGO? Ya they knew a lot about asymmetry back then, huh.
Seriously, it is amazing how petty you guys are...
Sorry for the rant...
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Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling
"The effect of static weights, in ball reaction, is the equivalent of removing the floor mats, from your SUV, to get better gas mileage."
www.BrunswickBowling.com
www.BrunswickInsiders.com
www.DBKMiniCamp.com
So, the advent of offset weight blocks necessitated the weight shift, and/or balance hole to retain legal status. This changes the actual layout..........how? LOL. This slays me.
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Post by: Greg T on February 27, 2008, 11:23:42 AM
I don't understand? LOL. I understand all too well. Bringing up a 30 year old layout brings fame a fortune to a discussion board member. Besides, arent you one of cgnomaddah gang? So who cares where the cg is placed and whether or not there even IS a cg? Given that it doesnt matter takes us back to the age of urethane which takes us back to the standard layout. Pin in palm. Ingenious!!
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Post by: Russell on February 27, 2008, 11:33:28 AM
quote:
I don't understand? LOL. I understand all too well. Bringing up a 30 year old layout brings fame a fortune to a discussion board member. Besides, arent you one of cgnomaddah gang? So who cares where the cg is placed and whether or not there even IS a cg? Given that it doesnt matter takes us back to the age of urethane which takes us back to the standard layout. Pin in palm. Ingenious!!
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If yer arm don't hurt ya ain't shiftin it right!
RESEARCH! Don't be a maroon!!.
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Greg it's about altering core dynamics. The pin in palm layout makes the RG in the core as low as possible, all the while keeping the diff intact for flare. This creates a new tendency of the core to find it's PSA a little faster, thus making the ball roll quicker.
With the older balls the intention was different, there were only static weights, no cores.
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Post by: Greg T on February 27, 2008, 11:41:37 AM
quote:
Greg it's about altering core dynamics. The pin in palm layout makes the RG in the core as low as possible, all the while keeping the diff intact for flare. This creates a new tendency of the core to find it's PSA a little faster, thus making the ball roll quicker.
With the older balls the intention was different, there were only static weights, no cores.
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http://www.myspace.com/rlrussell
The artist formerly known as "jabroni"
Yup. I know this. All i am saying is that naming an old layout after someone who decided to begin using it again is rather silly. I never said it wasnt effective. I understand the differences in the core dynamics. All i'm saying is that pin in pal has been used for many many years, and at one time was just the standard layout for any given ball. So, the cores may have changed, but this is still an old layout.
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(http://"http://webpages.charter.net/gat/Web%20Posts/Bugs13.wav")
Post by: Russell on February 27, 2008, 11:48:09 AM
quote:quote:
Greg it's about altering core dynamics. The pin in palm layout makes the RG in the core as low as possible, all the while keeping the diff intact for flare. This creates a new tendency of the core to find it's PSA a little faster, thus making the ball roll quicker.
With the older balls the intention was different, there were only static weights, no cores.
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/rlrussell
The artist formerly known as "jabroni"
Yup. I know this. All i am saying is that naming an old layout after someone who decided to begin using it again is rather silly. I never said it wasnt effective. I understand the differences in the core dynamics. All i'm saying is that pin in pal has been used for many many years, and at one time was just the standard layout for any given ball. So, the cores may have changed, but this is still an old layout.
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If yer arm don't hurt ya ain't shiftin it right!
RESEARCH! Don't be a maroon!!.
(http://"http://webpages.charter.net/gat/Web%20Posts/Bugs13.wav")
No...the old layout you're referring to was putting the WEIGHT in the palm. 3-piece pancake balls don't have a "core" therefore no pin. They might have marked one but it was not party of the dynamics....only for show. Those were not "layouts", merely making the ball legal w/o a hole. The point of the pin in palm layout we have today IS for there to be a weight hole, it completes the puzzle, thus making it different.
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http://www.myspace.com/rlrussell
The artist formerly known as "jabroni"
Post by: RealBowler on February 27, 2008, 01:10:44 PM
quote:
I don't understand? LOL. I understand all too well. Bringing up a 30 year old layout brings fame a fortune to a discussion board member. Besides, arent you one of cgnomaddah gang? So who cares where the cg is placed and whether or not there even IS a cg? Given that it doesnt matter takes us back to the age of urethane which takes us back to the standard layout. Pin in palm. Ingenious!!
--------------------
If yer arm don't hurt ya ain't shiftin it right!
RESEARCH! Don't be a maroon!!.
(http://"http://webpages.charter.net/gat/Web%20Posts/Bugs13.wav")
Good point, I think.
Really if CG doesn't matter, what difference does it make if you put it at 45 degrees? Just put the CG where you want and draw a line 45* from grip center and put the hole at 6 3/4 inches, right?
a) What do you do with 0" pins?
b) What about 1" pins?
c) Does it really matter if you put the CG in the finger half of the ball and still put the hole in the thumb quad?
Since weights don't matter, it really shouldn't matter where you put the CG. It's all about the hole, right? Putting the CG in the thumb area should give the ball more thumb weight (aka negative weight).
d) What if the ball is a longer pinout and has a higher top weight?
e) What if you can't get the ending weights legal? Shift the CG to the finger quad and drill the fingers as deep as you need. Does that work?
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Haywood
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I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
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Post by: BrunsNick on February 27, 2008, 01:22:23 PM
RICO 4 LIFE.
p.p.s. lol @ gregtoe
REgards
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
http://www.BrunsNick.com
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Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: Juggernaut on February 27, 2008, 01:31:34 PM
I think RICO will do just fine, thank you..............
--------------------
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Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on February 27, 2008, 01:37:46 PM
What type of player would benefit the most from this? I need one ball with emphasis on control over anything else especially on some of these flying backend sport patterns.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: BrunsNick on February 27, 2008, 01:56:02 PM
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: RealBowler on February 27, 2008, 02:01:16 PM
quote:
If there were no antiquated USBC Static weight rules, then we could put the pin the the palm, mass bias at 45 degrees and put our hole where we needed, regardless of pin distance, top weight, yadda etc etc.
RICO 4 LIFE.
p.p.s. lol @ gregtoe
REgards
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Okay, so really it doesn't matter? Or is it specific that the line has to be drawn from pin through the CG? Technically that would be the MB - even though symmetric balls don't have a significant MB. Still, what about 0" pin balls? Do you just pick any direction, or do you choose a different ball?
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Haywood
**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
Post by: BrunsNick on February 27, 2008, 02:10:19 PM
Make sense?
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Edited on 2/27/2008 3:10 PM
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on February 27, 2008, 02:12:16 PM
quote:
Fluff... In my experience, there isn't a greater layout for what you're looking for.
Excellent! Thanks for the input. I have been considering this one for a while now and maybe I should just finally get it done.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: RealBowler on February 27, 2008, 02:22:09 PM
quote:
Well we try to use something with a 2-3" pin to allow us the ability to use a sizeable x-hole and still be legal afterwards. On a symmetrical core ball, the reason we put the CG at 45* is to shift enough mass in the thumb/side quadrant because we KNOW that is where the x-hole is going for the layout. If we were to use a 0" pin, that would limit the size of the x-hole we can use and not go over negative side or finger.
Make sense?
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Edited on 2/27/2008 3:10 PM
Thanks! I suppose it does. I'm not a driller, don't play one on TV, and didn't even stay at a Holiday Express last night. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind the layout. I just throw the ball and try to knock down the pins. Never really been to a pro shop that drills more than label or stacked - guess those drillings work for most people, and I'm sure not good enough to need any fancy schmancy drilling. Still, the science behind ball reactions is interesting. I just need it dumbed down enough for my simple mind! Physics wasn't my strong subject.
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Haywood
**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
Post by: Russell on February 27, 2008, 03:54:16 PM
quote:
so while we're on the subject, hows about a RICO OI on a THS? i might plug mine and find a new layout since i hate it at my house.
specs in profile.
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Formerly HammerBowler
One half of the Tag-Team Internet Ownage Champions
¡Viva la Nación de Brunswick!
Funny you mention that...I have one that has been sitting my bonus room waiting to go on Ebay for a couple of months. I only liked it on the before mentioned short patterns with crispy backends. I used it on the Cheetah or something similar. On THS it would tend to be too continuous and flat off of the corner. I would have trouble kicking corners out.
BR.com search hack: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
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Post by: novawagonmaster on February 27, 2008, 03:57:19 PM
quote:It has been stated that you should look for a ball with the pinout approx half the distance of your span (ie: If you have a 5" span, look for a ball with a 2.5" pin).quote:Okay, so really it doesn't matter? Or is it specific that the line has to be drawn from pin through the CG? Technically that would be the MB - even though symmetric balls don't have a significant MB. Still, what about 0" pin balls? Do you just pick any direction, or do you choose a different ball?--------------------Haywood**************************I don't need a stupidsignature. This is enough.**************************
If there were no antiquated USBC Static weight rules, then we could put the pin the the palm, mass bias at 45 degrees and put our hole where we needed, regardless of pin distance, top weight, yadda etc etc.RICO 4 LIFE.p.p.s. lol @ gregtoeREgards--------------------Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08http://www.BrunsNick.comhttp://www.AskTheBowler.comhttp://www.BigBapparel.comFriends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
--------------------
Jon (in Ohio)
Post by: BrunsNick on February 27, 2008, 04:09:05 PM
http://brunsnick.com/rico_inferno.html
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: Juggernaut on February 27, 2008, 04:14:05 PM
quote:
so while we're on the subject, hows about a RICO OI on a THS? i might plug mine and find a new layout since i hate it at my house.
specs in profile.
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Formerly HammerBowler
One half of the Tag-Team Internet Ownage Champions
¡Viva la Nación de Brunswick!
BR.com search hack: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
This is what I shot my 800 with. Don't be afraid of it. The ball still has the activator read that your used to, just seemed to stretch the reaction out over a longer length, making it smoother overall.
--------------------
What did you expect, something PROFOUND?
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Post by: RealBowler on February 28, 2008, 08:34:55 AM
quote:quote:It has been stated that you should look for a ball with the pinout approx half the distance of your span (ie: If you have a 5" span, look for a ball with a 2.5" pin).quote:Okay, so really it doesn't matter? Or is it specific that the line has to be drawn from pin through the CG? Technically that would be the MB - even though symmetric balls don't have a significant MB. Still, what about 0" pin balls? Do you just pick any direction, or do you choose a different ball?--------------------Haywood**************************I don't need a stupidsignature. This is enough.**************************
If there were no antiquated USBC Static weight rules, then we could put the pin the the palm, mass bias at 45 degrees and put our hole where we needed, regardless of pin distance, top weight, yadda etc etc.RICO 4 LIFE.p.p.s. lol @ gregtoeREgards--------------------Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08http://www.BrunsNick.comhttp://www.AskTheBowler.comhttp://www.BigBapparel.comFriends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
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Jon (in Ohio)
Thanks Jon. I guess I missed that part about the drilling, but that seems to make sense.
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Haywood
**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
Post by: TTforshort on February 28, 2008, 08:56:24 AM
quote:
Sorry Greg, this is sorta silly, don't you think?
TT
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"Following the course of least resistance makes for crooked rivers and crooked men."
Post by: Sawuser on March 04, 2008, 04:40:21 PM
quote:
Darn, I guess all those balls I drilled in the 50's and 60's with the cg in different places all over the ball with an X-hole to make legal was just my imagination. Best all around one we had was cg on PAP with a 9" hole. Another for slicker lanes was cg on PAP and x-hole on PAP. Another was cg on NAP with x-hole on NAP. We sometimes had to guess at static weights for legal only. We didn't pay too much attention to static weights for reaction, just cover and cg placement. Even rubber acted different to polishes and sanding.
Darned old timer!
Thanks for encouraging me to lead with the ring finger by the way. Not that I didn't know it, but I wasn't doing it & needed a reminder. It helped me greatly!
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Righty
Think about it!