BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: wei on May 15, 2007, 10:23:57 PM
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Guys, Im just wondering if RICO layout is suitable for stroker, tweener or is it just suitable for cranker only?
Thanks in advance
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A Rico layout I say is suitable for all kinds, as the purpose of that layout is have a ball that reacts off of the "hand" you put behind it-it takes the core completely out of play. I have that in my Track Phenom, as a cranker, and it works for me. I had that in my Track Phoenix initally, but I am a fan of the Robo core, and wanted to have it play a part in my overall ball reaction.
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www.putfile.com/trackbowler627
High game-300
High series-796
Current Arsenal- Track Power Machine, Ebonite Total NV, Track Phoenix, Track Mean Machine, Track Phenom, Track Equation, and Track Silencer.
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This is a really old thread, but I had a generic question so I thought I'd resurrect it.
Generally speaking, would a Rico layout work for slower ball speeds?
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It merely enhances a bowling ball...if you have slower speed it would prolly benefit you to use a later response type cover and core to close down your angles
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I bowl in a center where pin downs are not usually the answer.
I believe some guys have tried this drilling and like most pin downs it has not worked.
Why does/would this drilling work in a predominately pin up house.
When one says, "it enhances ball reaction". What does that mean?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I bowl in a center where pin downs are not usually the answer.
I believe some guys have tried this drilling and like most pin downs it has not worked.
Why does/would this drilling work in a predominately pin up house.
When one says, "it enhances ball reaction". What does that mean?
Regards,
Luckylefty
This is the most ridiculous blanket statement I've ever read on this site, "pin down balls are usually not the answer in your center", um, ok.
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Are the pin down group changing surface or moving their feet?
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Justrico/Ric Hamlin has stated before about the rico layout. If you want info on the brunsnick has posted on his website how to do this layout. Justrico also stated before about the importance of the location of the weight hole and the size of the weight hole. I see and hear so many bowlers tell me they have a rico layout and I look at it and tell them they have a pin down layout. They say it the same and I tell them it's different. I disagree with the statement that pin down drillings don't work in a center. Without seeing the bowlers and what they're trying to do with the ball: surface, what part of lane they're playing, etc...! This layout works great for me on the fresh when I can play up the boards, but doesn't work as well when I move deep. I drilled one for a friend and he loved the ball when he played deep and he used it probably 90% of the time he bowled! I've used it on a Brunswick Loaded Revolver, Lane Masters Sure Strike and Sting and it worked on them all. Just my $.02, Bruce
I've added a link to Brunsnick rico layout video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxo7WxBQAAY
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Northface,
Great comments. OK ....
OUr multitime regional champion pro shop driller.....drills many balls a week. He says many have asked for various pin downs and he has complied and the bowlers say...."it doesn't work here". He is wrong you are right.
I have brought in quite a few balls with pin downs which I use on many other patterns in the state with a lot of satisfaction.(my preferred drilling and often appropriate on many lefty shots I see) I can get them in the pocket and have very little success carrying at this center. I am wrong, you are right.
I have looked at the balls of our state known bowlers who tear this center up and all of them except one 20 mph bowler are using pin up. They are wrong, you are right!
I have tried pin down under bridge, pin down 4 1/4, pin down 2 inch pin to pap stacked, pin down 2 inch pin to pap cg near grip center, I have tried pin down Revs Leverage (slight modification), I have tried pin down 3 3/8 pin to pap, stacked and 3 3/8 pin down mb on VAL. They lazily hit in this center and carry for me with low percentage. I am wrong you are right.
I have not tried Rico, but our ball driller has complied with customer requests and drilled rico for this house and reported that the high level state known bowlers who used it were "disappointed" in this house with the results...He says they go to other centers and report better results with the Rico.
Tell me again about the statement above....
I know you are a very good bowler, but I guess I am confused...
Thanks,
Luckylefty
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It may not be the drilling LuckyLefty as much as surface prep! Just a thought! I don't bowl there and have no idea what the bowlers are dealing with and so I can't comment on pin down layouts for that center. You know the house and typically a pin up drilling for me gives me more movement off the spot, whereas the pin down reads sooner and smoother off the spot. Are the lanes wood, synthetic and what type of lanes does it have. Thanks, Bruce
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Bat,
Great sincere questions and appreciated.
The center seems to have a stripper problem. In most cases a quick response to friction is needed to carry. Problem seems worse on the left due to the usual lack of friction in the lanebed. Early Anvilane.
The center however seems to have a tendency to create more midlane than what is needed in the fronts for all pin downs. Or any mass bias that has much kickout.
I have mostly used pin downs as a lefty since I have been bowling with a revs leverage being one of my favorite drillings over the years. Not this center not even close! DOA.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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So pin downs burn up too much in the mids. So the balls are puking a bit? Is there any surface prep or hand position changes that make a difference?
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Only balls that work in my house are balls that use primary colors. What a coincidence!
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All the good bowlers use pin up and no longer fight it.
Last year the shot was much shorter and much cleaner in the back pin down only!
I have not quizzed them on their various strategies, but I have noted one guy at between 19 and 20.5 on his strike ball has many pin downs. That seems to work for all the guys over 20. Just him.
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Only balls that work in my house are balls that use primary colors. What a coincidence!
You must be bowling on the ROYGBIV oil pattern.
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I'd be interested to see how far the pins are from their axis. A pin up at 6.5 inches is going to be a totally different motion than a pin up at 2.5 inches. Also, which val angles work better. 20? 30? 40? Surfaces too. (OOB is not a valid answer.) Do Brunswick covers do better than Ebonite covers, or are those created the same?
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Northface,
Great comments. OK ....
OUr multitime regional champion pro shop driller.....drills many balls a week. He says many have asked for various pin downs and he has complied and the bowlers say...."it doesn't work here". He is wrong you are right.
I have brought in quite a few balls with pin downs which I use on many other patterns in the state with a lot of satisfaction.(my preferred drilling and often appropriate on many lefty shots I see) I can get them in the pocket and have very little success carrying at this center. I am wrong, you are right.
I have looked at the balls of our state known bowlers who tear this center up and all of them except one 20 mph bowler are using pin up. They are wrong, you are right!
I have tried pin down under bridge, pin down 4 1/4, pin down 2 inch pin to pap stacked, pin down 2 inch pin to pap cg near grip center, I have tried pin down Revs Leverage (slight modification), I have tried pin down 3 3/8 pin to pap, stacked and 3 3/8 pin down mb on VAL. They lazily hit in this center and carry for me with low percentage. I am wrong you are right.
I have not tried Rico, but our ball driller has complied with customer requests and drilled rico for this house and reported that the high level state known bowlers who used it were "disappointed" in this house with the results...He says they go to other centers and report better results with the Rico.
Tell me again about the statement above....
I know you are a very good bowler, but I guess I am confused...
Thanks,
Luckylefty
Nevertheless, just saying "pin down doesnt work" is lazy. Too many variables left unanswered to say it "doesnt work". If these guys are standing in the friction zone and throwing 15 mph and are end over end, then of course it doesnt work.
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North,
How many different things should they try to make pin downs work?
Maybe you could clarify so they could get better and I will try to follow them.
I actually believe that sloppiness of the backends is requiring that quicker reponses to friction are needed at the back. Versus the house quickly wants to force people inside mostly from the mids to the point where flat corners abound on both sides. More so on the left.
All fast bowlers with loft seem to enjoy this center.
I am working to become one of them, with my pin up bowling balls.
I think it is much like many tournies, bowlers talk and see which strategies and ball setups seem to be working the best and follow. I have bowled in some centers that loved one inch pin to paps and a nice smooth backend and the carry was phenomenal.
Not this one! I am not saying it is hard, I am just saying that doesn't seem to work too well.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Luckylefty
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Maybe it's too much bottom weight. :P
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Hmmm, I don't drill with Bottom weight and nobody in my center with our top driller would buy in to that silliness in a center where we want push...
But maybe many guys on here would have trouble because of that!
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS may your balls roll.....early....with lots of bottom weight!
PPS Here is the perfect ball from a good full disclosure seller on Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRUNSWICK-C-SYSTEM-MAXXED-OUT-BOWLING-ball-15-lbs-NEW-IN-BOX-/291135241663?pt=Bowling&hash=item43c9033dbf
This may be the perfect ball for ballreviewers who say statics don't matter!((97% of ballreviews visitors it is you say?). AND Low RG on conditions that already have lots of midlane but the bowlers want length. Do it with surface they say.
PPPS I wonder why it is a factory second when ending statics don't matter?
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It's a second only because of the USBC rules...
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It is a second, for a very good reason. It would be nice after drilling with its two ounces of bottom weight for certain wet conditions.
I hope one of our ballreviews members buys it and lets us know what a great hard hitting ball it is!
On a sparky short league top hat!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Which will matter more, the pin up or all that bottom weight?
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When one of you guys who don't care about static weights buy it I'm dying to hear of the results.
Somehow I feel a "motion hole" coming on after the reports come back....
Regards,
Luckylefty
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You know what BrunsNick would say!
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I find it rather priceless the trivial irrelevent BS horse beating some pull off worrying abt approx 7% of an equation while accusing the relevant 93% of beating a dead horse...there horse isn't dead enough?
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Then buy the ball! It's perfect to display your theory. Drill it up with it's ending 2 ounces of bottom weight and show how well it pushes down the lane.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I'll go for the 7% improvement as will most pro shops!
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You worrying abt the 7% ignoring the 93%.....THAT'S MY POINT
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Very interested in all components, surface, pin position, mass bias, weighthole position, flare control and did I mention surface.
2 ounces to 3 ounces bottom weight could end all that 93% hard work.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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I look forward to the chain of LuckyLefty pro shops sweeping the nation.
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From USBC/Bowl.com
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/2011StaticWeightsStudy.pdf
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They are not under my name, but pro shops who believe in altering statics to fine tune reaction are ALL over the country!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS, again I would love to see someone Impending/Rico/other followers buy this ball and try to use on light volume of oil vs the same ball with a starting top of 3. It's cheap.
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Do I have to keep the covers the same or can I properly prepare the one ball with the correct surface prep for the conditions?
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It would be cool to see both ways.
Same surface one with ending top one without same drilling. Then adjust surface to see if a surface alteration can compensate for 3 ounces different of ending top and bottom!
Yay.
Regards,
Luckylefty
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It's just like the test BrunsNick did with the Lane #1 ball. Pin distance was the same, but the cg was shifted to create positive side weight on one and negative side weight on the other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSCwh-E8Fw
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Bat,
I did see that before.
1. I didn't buy it! Because I had seen another one which I can't find now where a player first threw positive created a burn and then negative. It was not convincing because of the order. The second ball after friction was created turned back strongly to the hole.
2. Oh, by the way I have a ball drilled pin over bridge and cg negative about an inch or so. It is very interesting and similar to the experiment above. If I come in after an evening league by about the 3rd game I cannot be beat once this ball starts working. It pushes very well thru the drying mids and goes very straight to it's breakpoint except for as the friction slowly increases on the left in the late mids I finally get a couple of boards of midlane. I have then taken this ball to league and it has been absolutely worthless. No recovery and no midlane. (As you all know we have quite a bit less friction from the lane bed surface and also more oil on our side.
I am in the casual process of redrilling to be straight up over the bridge and the cg on grip center to contrast the midlane from the drilling. (To see if it will work in the more liquid league oil shot).
3. Even Just has admitted that cg's are 7% of reaction versus "nomaddeh"
4. This example of the linked for sale ball on ebay is about serious ending bottom weight on an already early rolling ball. I have known many good righties who were bowling with bottom weight balls and have been disappointed. Not as serious on the left I don't believe because of our heavier midlane oil and lack of lane bed friction! I have intentionally used balls with slight bottom to smooth things out!
I expect an ending difference between the balls of 3 ounces. It should be interesting.
Thanks Impending!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Lucky,
I did a test on my DeTerminator on my Rico'd Loaded Revolver and it had a higher spin time than I expected. Maybe with a higher spin time that is the reason some are having trouble with this type of layout at your center? If they are having issues with the lane machine not getting the lanes stripped properly, the ball isn't turning the corner correctly to get the corner pins out. It's almost like they would have built in carry down before you bowl. Just a thought and my $.02, Bruce
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I also find that ball rolls as good as any I have and I think sometimes it's the best reaction. The DeTerminator doesn't factor in coverstock, so you just have to use the info for core strength and alter the cover to best fit conditions!
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Lefty,
Tell your pro shop guy to jump on here and have a discussion with this. Let's see if he actually knows what he's talking about it if he's full of hot air, because you seem incapable of shaking the notion that static weights don't matter. I know my stuff. I talk to plenty of pro shop owners who have customers like you, and call them out on their bull. If your "negative cg" ball isn't usable during league, why not adjust the surface?
This topic is getting silly. You see studies, and don't buy it, but you have a clue? Get a job with Brunswick and SET THEM STRAIGHT!
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Does this mean you are not doing the study you alluded to above?
Bruns/Just/Rico now states 7% factor not "nomaddeh". I believe him now. I love every advantage!
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS Note I have seen two studies of pin over and cg on both sides. One verified what I have seen one didn't.
PPS As to current pin over negative CG, I like taking their loose change after league! Push!
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I have realized your comments are nothing less than to create an argument, not a discussion
My reference of 7% was taken out of context...I merely referenced USBC's contention not mine
I know what creates & effect ball motion/reaction and use those to my fullest...statics are never...NEVER something I check or concern myself with due to the fact of the primary effecters of reaction.
Legitimate opinions should NEVER be based on personal/individual results...EVER as they prove merely a limited result or moment...results have to be based on the whole...you are giving nothing more or less than your limited opinion and/or perspective
And this will be a limited situation I will not respond to you anymore...I choose not to get in a war of words with you as it is absolutely pointless and a waste of my time...
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But I rely on your posts for entertainment....
Sort of like Profootballtalk.com, prior to being sold to NBC.
S^2
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Not directed at you...I think
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Edit...
Reply --> Rely
Now it makes a bit more sense
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Interesting....
Regards,
Luckylefty
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For whatever reason (boredom possibly) I'm gonna mane a couple of more comments on this...
If anyone TRULY understand how a pin out or top weight is created, they would TRULY understand how trivially irrelevant statics are...1/32" shift from TRUE center of the mass creates (4.25" away) a 1" pin out or 1oz top weight. So if I cut the ball in half one side has 1/64" more mass. Static weights are just that, a weight gauged in a static sense not in a dynamic sense.
And anyone that has been performed TRUE tests and evaluations understands that one instance does not prove legitimate stats or proof just merely a limited instance nothing more nothing less.
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Ive seen this before, and no doubt will again.
LL will not believe anyone in reference to statics except for his proshop guy and his in house experiences.
Ive yet to see any proof from LL of videos of him bowling in said house wih any kind of pin up or pin down ball. Or any variance in static weight. In a day of technology such as this you should be able to video document your house and these experiences.
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Also in reference to the ebay ball being a 2nd why don't you call or email Brunswick to ask them why said ball would be a 2nd and give us your results?
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It's an inherent trait, the average individual is only able to process what they can see and understand...they cannot evaluate in that environment thus they base it on personal experience only
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My preception started changing when videoing my self showed me what I couldn't see or feel on the lanes.
Where and what I thought I was doing was not reality. It's not always easy to accept if you never allow yourself the chance to really see it.
Im an extremely stubborn person, but I know when to open up to new possibilities. Try going to bowling chat and ask other industry professionals your same questions so we can see what there thoughts are LL. Maybe you will find contradiction to better support your experiences.
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It's always best to remove ourselves from the equation....many cant do that