BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: Next Level PS on December 19, 2003, 07:38:00 AM
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There are so many theories of the balance hole. drill guys and tech guys lets view in and post a response.
1. X-hole on the PAP?
2. X-hole below the PAP?
3. X-hole Pass the VAL?
4. X-hole in side the VAL
5. X-hole Pitch away 1-1 1/4"
6. X-hole 6 3/4 away from the pin
7. X-hole 6" away from the center of grip.
8. X-hole above the PAP "short pin"
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
also know as VortexII
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1. X-hole on the PAP?
-Quicker Roll, earlier start
2. X-hole below the PAP?
-Earlier recovery through the midlane, its adding more fingerweight so it will get down the lane then flare a bit more the last 30 feet
3. X-hole Pass the VAL?
-Later flare potential
4. X-hole in side the VAL
-Earlier, much quicker flare. Makes sharper change in direction
5. X-hole Pitch away 1-1 1/4"
-adds more thumbweight, earlier roll
6. X-hole 6 3/4 away from the pin
-What direction?
7. X-hole 6" away from the center of grip.
-just like x-hole past the VAL
8. X-hole above the PAP "short pin"
-More thumbweight, earlier roll
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-D. Marshall
ScratchBowling.com Shirt Staff 2003-2004
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anyone else want to chime in?
Maybe: T-god, Randy, KOTM again, Doug, Drillwizard, stormtech, you to new guy. HOLA.
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
also know as VortexII
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DP3,
Please clarify in each case, Later, earlier, more flare than what??
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
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1. X-hole on the PAP will roll earlier and smoother on the back.
2. X-hole below the PAP will add finger weight and take out side and some top. If the ball has good top to begin with, the ball will remain strong on the back. If the ball has low top, the ball will roll later and smoother on the back.
3. X-hole Pass the VAL will usually add top and take out side. This will make the ball stronger, if some side weight is left.
4. X-hole in side the VAL takes out top and side weight. This makes the ball roll earlier and smoother
5. X-hole Pitch away 1-1 1/4"...(from where..?) Where is the hole in relation to your grip..?
6. X-hole 6 3/4 away from the pin...This depends where the hole is in relation to your grip.
7. X-hole 6" away from the center of grip takes out side weight and very minimal top. This makes the ball roll earlier and smoother.
8. X-hole above the PAP "short pin" takes out finger weight and top, making the ball roll earliler and smoother.
The key to all this is what are your ending weights/ending cneter of gravity..? That will tell you what the ball is going to do, not where you put the hole, for the most part.
Remember, if you keep drilling the hole deeper, you will end with negative weight and a different ending center of gravity. This will usually kill the balls backend reaction, no matter where you put the hole on the positive side of the ball..!!
It's not where you put the hole, it's what weights you end with..!! =:^D
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"I'm asking" so core shape has nothing to do with whether I pitch it at zero or at 1 1/4" away. now i'm just asking.
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
also know as VortexII
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PS, at the point where you reach the core (near the center of the ball), the less affect hitting the core has.
Pitched holes are normaly for raising the top weight, while keeping the balance hole from being in a place as to not flare over it. =:^D
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KOTM, Your a funny dude!!
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
also know as VortexII
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quote:
I need to put my two cents in here. For the most part, I agree with what T-GOD said about hole placements. The only problem I have with his statement is this last sentence.
quote:
It's not where you put the hole, it's what weights you end with..!! =:^D
If it's not WHERE you put the hole....why then does the reaction of the ball change when you place the hole in all these different locations? You could end up with the same ending static balance with a hole in all these places and get a different reaction BECAUSE of the location of the hole.
When you put the hole in these different places, you are changing the shape of the core. The shape of the core is what determines the motion of the ball. If this was not true, then there would be no need for ball companies to develope different shaped cores. They could all be the same and just use static balance to enhance the reaction.....oh wait....we did that 25 years ago with pancake, three piece balls.
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"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
Hmm... Core shape dictates motion? core angle" mass bias placement".
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
also know as VortexII
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Brian, here we go again..!!
quote:
You could end up with the same ending static balance with a hole in all these places and get a different reaction BECAUSE of the location of the hole.
quote:
When you put the hole in these different places, you are changing the shape of the core.
NO..!! If you're hitting the core with the weight hole, you're NOT CHANGING THE CORE SHAPE ENOUGH TO CHANGE THE REACTION OF THE BALL..!! You will get the same reaction if the ending weights are the same.
Now I'm talking about most normal weight holes, not some huge hole taking out most of the flip block of a core.
To prove my point, just drill wide shallow weight holes, to change the ending CG/ending static weights, without touching the core at all. You will see a change in ball reaction, but it won't be from hitting the core/changing the core shape.
Ending static weights have more of an affect on the ball, than does the SLIGHT CHANGING OF THE CORE, due to hitting the core with a weight hole..!! =:^D
Edited on 12/24/2003 11:58 AM
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Let me simplify things a bit here from the "old school" in terms of weightholes.
SKinny hole drilled deep will stabilize the roll. A wide hole drilled shallow will destabilize the roll more. Think about it...in essence it changes the shape of the core and creates a...dare I say it?....mass bias situation.
Now above or below the PAP?
Above decreases fingerweight and will make the ball roll sooner.
Below will decrease thumbweight and make the ball go longer before hooking.
Inside, on or outside VAL
Inside...decreases top weight so will decrease length
Past VAL...will enhance flare character later on the lane.
To pitch or not to pitch?
Pitched towards palm will decrease top weight and make the ball more center heavy, making it want to rev quicker
Pitched awy from the palm will conserve top weight and make the ball lope more and hook later
The entire piching of the weighthole was created by Mr Core Shape Dictates Ball Motion Pinel himself back in the early 90's with his Power Rating System. The more I go back and look at it, he was talking about the stuff we are today withthe pin to PAP placement and mass bias stuff. He is truly a man ahead of his time....still don;t like the guy's products or attitude but he is an incredible bowling genius.
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Diamonds are a bowler's best friend!
Now accepting VISA/MC and Discover for your purchases
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Good post Doug.
not to jump off the subject so pin under the fingers has the same effect as pin over the finger both being 5" layouts. I think theres no difference in hole sizes (finger and Thumb) but pin under shorten the core from the fingers being at the top of the core and thumb being above the equator of the core. I wouldn't think there's any stactic difference between the two. the motion was change through the shape of the core I believe not the static change.
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
also know as VortexII
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quote:
Skinny hole drilled deep will stabilize the roll. A wide hole drilled shallow will destabilize the roll more. Think about it...in essence it changes the shape of the core and creates a...dare I say it?....mass bias situation.
Doug, I think you have it backwards here. =:^D
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Brian, why have you disappeared..? I was looking for a comment on my reply to you. Seeing as there is no comment, does that mean what I'm saying makes sense now..? =:^D
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quote:
val is the vertical axis line.If you draw a line straight up and down from your positive axis point this is your vertical axis line.
GO ST. LOUIS RAMS!!!!!
Could also be reffered to has Mid Plane.
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Brian,
quote:
If you happen to have a 2+ inch label shift in a ball that starts with a decent top weight, there's no way you can make the ball legal (under one ounce) with a large shallow hole that doesn't touch the core. So, you must drill a deeper hole and then you are changing the shape of the core and now the balls reaction.
Let's say the ball has lower top weight, so with a 2" shift, there's only 1 1/8 oz. side. Now you can make the ball legal and take most of the side weight out without hitting the core. Are you going to say there will be no difference with 1 1/8 oz. side and zero side..?
Let's forget about the ABC rule for a minute and say we can use any size hole we want. We'll just drill the side of the ball, without hitting the core, whatever size hole we want to get out 2 oz. of side weight. Will 2 oz. make a difference for you..? Remember, how much wobble is taken out of the tire of your car by pounding a 1/2 oz. weight to the rim..!!quote:
If changing the shape of the core meant nothing, then why do ball manufacturers spend countless dollars and time designing new cores? BECAUSE THE SHAPE OF THE CORE DETERMINES THE MOTION OF THE BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There you go again, not understanding what you read.quote:
If you're hitting the core with the weight hole, you're NOT CHANGING THE CORE SHAPE ENOUGH TO CHANGE THE REACTION OF THE BALL..!!
This is the whole point of our debate. quote:
You can't tell me, and I challenge you to do it, that ball "A" with a pin 4" from the PAP and the Cg 5" will react the same as ball "B" with a pin 4" from the PAP and the Cg 1"...with both of these balls having zero side weight. So if I understand your theory, because the static weights are the same, the balls should react the same.
Now are you talking about a symmetrical core ball..? If the starting CG is 5" from the PAP in 1 ball, and 1" from the PAP in another, the core will be at different angles. Yes, the 2 balls will roll different with the same static weights. But, that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about a ball drilled with a certain core angle. Now let's say the ball has whatever side weight, 1 1/2 oz., 0 finger weight, and 0 top weight. The ball is going to react a certain way when you throw it.
Now let's forget about ABC rules for a minute, to prove a point.
Now drill a hole on the 6 3/4 from the center of your grip, on the positive side of the ball. We're going to drill until we just reach the core, without hitting it. Now we're going to keep drilling around the side of the hole, making the hole wider, until there is no side weight left. Remember now, we didn't hit the core, so IT'S THE SAME SHAPE..!!
The ball now has 0 side, 0 finger, and 0 top. Are you going to tell me the ball will not react any different than before we put the hole in the ball..?
Now, let's plug that hole. Let's imagine we can plug the hole with the same density as the ball was when new. Or, that we didn't even drill the hole in the first place. Now, lets drill the hole 10 1/2" from the center of the grip, on the positive side of the ball.
Now we're going to drill a hole the same way, WITHOUT HITTING THE CORE. We make it wider and such until the ball ends with 1/2 side, 0 finger, and 1 1/4 top.
Remember, the CORE SHAPE IS THE SAME in both instances. The only difference is the STATIC WEIGHTS..!! Is the ball now going to roll the same as it did with the hole on the side and the ending weights 0,0,0..?
NO IT WON'T........!!!!!
We didn't change the core angle, we didn't hit the core, all we did was change the static weights. You need to understand this. Physics is physics, and that doesn't change. If statics mattered 30 years ago, they still do today, although maybe not as much. But, THE SAME RULES STILL APPLY TODAY..!! =:^D
Edited on 1/2/2004 11:14 PM
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King, what do you think of my post, explaining weight holes and statics..? =:^D
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Brian,
you know I respect your work.
However, I must confess I've put weightholes in balls that affected reaction that were not hitting the core.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Brian,
you know I respect your work.
However, I must confess I've put weightholes in balls that affected reaction that were not hitting the core.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Thank you Lefty. Brian, it's about time you did some experimenting with weight holes..!! =:^D