Author Topic: the Vertical part of the Axis point..... (Read 5207 times)

Next Level PS · « **on:** September 28, 2006, 03:31:29 PM »

Doing some comparisons with different bowlers I notices that the higher veritical in the axis point such as from 3/8 up to 1 1/2 up these bowlers usally have more side rotation natually off the hand than bowlers with 1/4 up to 3/8 down. I Know most of you gurus knew this but this just dawned on me. i will us this info as a tool in the future the better serve my customers with layout selection. I also noticed that most of the top pro on tour have no less that 0 but no more than 3/8 up. I assume that forward roll on tour patterns is the key in handling those conditions.

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"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"

legend4life95 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2006, 06:52:03 AM »

My pap is 4" over and 0 up or down. I have a ton of side roll. I was thinking opposite of your statement. A couple of buddies I bowl with asked me to find their pap and they both have alot more forward roll than me and both of them were in the 4-3/4" over range and 1/2" to 3/4" up range.
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****Kids in the back seat cause accidents; accidents in the back seat cause kids.****

BackToBasics · « **Reply #2 on:** September 29, 2006, 08:01:35 AM »

The vertical component is related to hand position, tilt and track angle not a function of side rotation. I can get up to 80* (normally in the 45-60*) and am 0 up. So it's posible to have someone with 1" up but with less side rotation than someone with a 0 veritical coordinate. However, oftentimes guys with lots of tilt also have lots of rotation.

charlest · « **Reply #3 on:** September 29, 2006, 08:37:46 AM »

quote:
The vertical component is related to hand position, tilt and track angle not a function of side rotation. I can get up to 80* (normally in the 45-60*) and am 0 up.

Lonce,

I have to agree with Anthony here. I am in the same boat. My up/down is zero (and sometimes negative), but I have about 45 degrees rotation. I can up that to 90 degrees without changing the up/down.

I think what you may have noticed is just a coincidence.

quote:

So it's posible to have someone with 1" up but with less side rotation than someone with a 0 veritical coordinate. However, oftentimes guys with lots of tilt also have lots of rotation.

"Often" may be more than 40% but I don't believe it's significant, as in approaching 75% of the cases. Be careful about using a small sample to reach a general condiiton. There are so very many variables involved.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2006, 03:00:40 PM »

I have never done an actual study and this is simply my observation from watching and checking the release track angle of around 100 bowlers.

The vertical inclination of your PAP coordinates come from the amount that you rotate around the side of the ball after your thumb exits.

That is why some crankers have a PAP that is down, these guys have longer lag time between thumb and finger exit giving more time to circle the ball.

I find that hand size can have an affect on the vertical because the larger the hand the more potential for lag time.

Having your fingers below the equator at thumb exit also makes you more likely to have a lower vertical axis.
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Next Level PS · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:29:51 AM »

back on this subject again I think the bowlers that have a range of 20-45 degrees of rotation have vertical axis point that range from 3/8 down to 3/8 up. Bowlers that have 7/16 up and more have 46 degrees of rotation or more.

Question. fullrollers usally have pap around 6 over and around 1 1/2 to 2" up has anyone ever seen a fulleroller with forward roll?
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"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"

Mike E · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:50:00 AM »

I am a full roller with pap measurement of 6&1/4 over 1&1/2 up. I typically use a suitcase release coming off the side of the ball. I have found that the typical full roller drill (pin at 7:30) rolls so early(even when put 2" to grip center) that I'm getting away from using them. I drilled a new red fireball xxxl Pin to grip center 2" in 7:30 direction and it was too strong to use if the lane dried up a little from the THS. Now I just do conventional drills (usually 6" pin to pap, pin 4" above midline) and let it roll over the holes. Doesn't seem to adversely effect ball roll. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks,
Mike E
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Did you know that you can't see pigs in a windstorm?

charlest · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2006, 11:26:41 AM »

quote:
back on this subject again I think the bowlers that have a range of 20-45 degrees of rotation have vertical axis point that range from 3/8 down to 3/8 up. Bowlers that have 7/16 up and more have 46 degrees of rotation or more.
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"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"

Lonce,

Maybe I'm the exception; I do not know. But If I am hitting the ball hard & I go from my normal 45-60 degrees to 90 degrees of rotation, my PAP goes from 1/2" down to 0".
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Next Level PS · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2006, 11:31:26 PM »

Charlest I have see you bowl a couple times and you dont have a ton rotation you have a decent amount of tilt. I would say around 17-24 degrees of tilt. I have a customer from around your way names Ed Kurlo his track is like 13" that equals something like 3 degrees but he has like rotation is in the area of 65-75 degrees and his PAP is 5 1/4 over and 1 up. I waiting for King of the Mill to call me back maybe Precision can jump in here.
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"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"

JohnP · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2006, 11:02:50 AM »

I'd like to add some general thoughts about the vertical component of the PAP measurement, which may not add anything to this specific discussion but might prompt other discussion.

The vertical component is strictly dependent on the angle of the track to the grip centerline (or as we more normally think of it, to the finger and thumb holes). If the track is angled so that it is closer to the thumb hole than to the finger holes, the vertical component will be positive. The more the angle, or the larger the difference between the distances to the thumb hole and to the finger holes, the larger this positive number is. If the track is angled such that the distance to the thumb hole is greater than the distance to the finger holes, then the vertical component is negative. The larger the difference in these distances, the larger the absolute value of the negative number, or the further down the PAP is (we call this type of track "inverted"). Of course, the track angle is dependent on the release, but I haven't figured out exactly what aspect of the release makes the difference. My track is strongly inverted (vertical component is -1 3/8"), but I have absolutely no idea why. And I've measured other PAP's with positive vertical components of up to 1 3/4", and can't identify anything in the release that causes the difference. So if anyone can pin down what causes the difference, I'd sure like to know the cause. -- JohnP

charlest · « **Reply #10 on:** October 11, 2006, 11:32:56 AM »

quote:
Charlest I have see you bowl a couple times and you dont have a ton rotation you have a decent amount of tilt. I would say around 17-24 degrees of tilt. I have a customer from around your way names Ed Kurlo his track is like 13" that equals something like 3 degrees but he has like rotation is in the area of 65-75 degrees and his PAP is 5 1/4 over and 1 up. I waiting for King of the Mill to call me back maybe Precision can jump in here.
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"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"

Lonce,

I have changed my release slightly since we last practiced together. My rotation is about 40-50 degrees; tilt is measured at 20 degrees. I can come around to a full 90 degrees when I want to; but I rarely do. I've measured my PAP when I do and it doesn't change much, but my track is slightly higher.

All I'm saying is please be careful about drawing a conclusion from limited data that may or may not be related.

I have no idea which other factors are related to up/down portion of the PAP.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Edited on 10/11/2006 11:31 AM

a_ak57 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2006, 07:40:18 PM »

I'm not knowledgable enough to explain anything but I do know that not everyone who has a down PAP coordinate is a cranker. Mainly because I have a down PAP, and I'd never be considered a cranker.
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- Andy

Next Level PS · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2006, 03:12:40 AM »

Did anyone read the April issue of Bowling this Month " Torgys Tips" I discover this old issue of BTM while I was getting rid of some White Castle Burgers I had the night before. I dont know what the hell they put in the burgers but man they should come with a roll of toilet paper. but read this article if you have lying around the house. then this may confirm my theory.
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"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"

Author Topic: the Vertical part of the Axis point..... (Read 5207 times)

Next Level PS

the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

legend4life95

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

BackToBasics

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

charlest

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

Re-Evolution

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

Next Level PS

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

Mike E

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

charlest

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

Next Level PS

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

JohnP

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

charlest

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

a_ak57

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....

Next Level PS

Re: the Vertical part of the Axis point.....